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Post by realitycheck on Mar 15, 2019 15:36:48 GMT -6
TP finishes 9th all time in scoring at 1558, 3rd in assists at 447 and 8th in FG's made with 569. Did it in three years!
Trey finishes 25th in scoring at 1138, 4th in rebounding at 904, 2nd in blocks at 139 and 1st all time in games played at 132.
Congrats to both seniors! Didn't turn out the way you or any of us hoped but TP went 56-43 in his three seasons and Trey was 77-57 in his four. Well done Cardinals!
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Post by rmcalhoun on Mar 15, 2019 23:44:35 GMT -6
Really cant argue that.. We will miss them both
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Post by williamtsherman on Mar 16, 2019 19:33:49 GMT -6
TP finishes 9th all time in scoring at 1558, 3rd in assists at 447 and 8th in FG's made with 569. Did it in three years! Trey finishes 25th in scoring at 1138, 4th in rebounding at 904, 2nd in blocks at 139 and 1st all time in games played at 132. Congrats to both seniors! Didn't turn out the way you or any of us hoped but TP went 56-43 in his three seasons and Trey was 77-57 in his four. Well done Cardinals! It's odd. You can't really separate them from the disappointing Whitford teams they played on. Person is #4 all-time in assists, but do you really think of him as a play maker? Moses #2 in blocks and #4 in rebounding, but did MAC opponents fear him? Do we think of him as a dominating inside player? Neither of these guys goes into my pantheon of immortal and revered players...but then I'm not even really a fan anymore. What if you put either one of them on one of the last three Bonzie teams that couldn't quite make it over the hump. They may well have made the difference. They would then be remembered in an entirely different way. It makes me sad. |
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Post by realitycheck on Mar 16, 2019 20:12:52 GMT -6
Tayler on one of our better teams with a coach who could actually, you know, coach could have been legendary with his skill and heart. Trey’s numbers are no doubt inflated by the sheer number of games he played and a complete lack of any other post recruiting by Whitford. But give each his due. They both put up historical numbers despite playing on flawed rosters with an oddball coach.
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lfbj00
Cardinal Recruit
Posts: 32 
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Post by lfbj00 on Mar 17, 2019 23:36:13 GMT -6
It's odd. You can't really separate them from the disappointing Whitford teams they played on. Person is #4 all-time in assists, but do you really think of him as a play maker? Moses #2 in blocks and #4 in rebounding, but did MAC opponents fear him? Do we think of him as a dominating inside player? Neither of these guys goes into my pantheon of immortal and revered players...but then I'm not even really a fan anymore. What if you put either one of them on one of the last three Bonzie teams that couldn't quite make it over the hump. They may well have made the difference. They would then be remembered in an entirely different way. It makes me sad. I think that Trey was much more of a focus of an opposing coach’s game plan than some want to give him credit for. Using stats from Trey’s four seasons of 2016-2019, these are his MAC rankings compared to his opponents during the same time period. Rebounds: #1. James Thompson IV-1451 #2. Demajeo Wiggins-1066 #3. Trey Moses-906 Block Shots: #1. James Thompson IV-171 #2. Doug Taylor-146 #3. Trey Moses-138 Assists: #1. Tayler Persons-447 #11. Trey Moses-283 (#’s 1-10 were all guards) Games Played: #1. Nick Perkins-137 #2. Jimond Ivey-133 #3. Trey Moses-132 Levi Bradley-132 Nate Navigato-132 Jaelan Sanford-132 James Thompson IV-132 2 Point FG% (minimum of 200 FG and 2 FG/G) #14. Trey Moses-53.49% Points Produced: Measures how many points a player produces and takes into consideration their made shots, assists, and offensive rebounds. #12. Trey Moses Total Rebound Percentage: This statistic is calculated by taking the total number of rebounds secured, both offensive and defensive, and dividing that number by the total number of rebounds available, while player is in the game. #9. Trey Moses Defensive Win Shares: Formula using a player’s Defensive Rating which is an estimate of the player's points allowed per 100 defensive possessions. #1. James Thompson IV #2. CJ Massinburg #3. Trey Moses * Former BSU player Lonnie Jones is MAC All-Time Leader* Total Defensive Rating: Measures how many points the player allowed per 100 possessions he individually faced while on the court. #9. Trey Moses *Tahjai Teague #1* It’s my opinion that this team was so under coached, that it’s amazing they won as many games as they did. Tayler is a fine player, but was given way too much free reign with the basketball to shoot at will, which caused terrible shot selection at times. He’s a career 45% shooter, 34% from 3 land. And although he was #1 in Assists during this span, he was also #1 in Turnovers. Again, not totally blaming the player, because the lack of coaching was very obvious. The inside game of BSU is vastly unused. Trey was part of this problem because he did not shoot the ball enough when he did get the ball, instead trying at times to make the perfect pass, which led to him creating too many turnovers. He placed #2 on the Turnover list. Tahjai falls in love with the outside shot, which he has no business shooting. He has way too much athletic ability around the rim, to be jacking up 22 foot flat-footed shots at a career 26%. You take out his 3’s, and he’s a 59% shooter from the field. A coach with an ounce of anything would have put a stop to that a long time ago. These were the 3 incoming players for 2016, and they’ve had, or are having, great careers. But it should have been much more... |
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Post by cardfan on Mar 18, 2019 3:03:04 GMT -6
Most of us agree with all that.
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Post by realitycheck on Mar 18, 2019 9:59:45 GMT -6
It's odd. You can't really separate them from the disappointing Whitford teams they played on. Person is #4 all-time in assists, but do you really think of him as a play maker? Moses #2 in blocks and #4 in rebounding, but did MAC opponents fear him? Do we think of him as a dominating inside player? Neither of these guys goes into my pantheon of immortal and revered players...but then I'm not even really a fan anymore. What if you put either one of them on one of the last three Bonzie teams that couldn't quite make it over the hump. They may well have made the difference. They would then be remembered in an entirely different way. It makes me sad. I think that Trey was much more of a focus of an opposing coach’s game plan than some want to give him credit for. Using stats from Trey’s four seasons of 2016-2019, these are his MAC rankings compared to his opponents during the same time period. Rebounds: #1. James Thompson IV-1451 #2. Demajeo Wiggins-1066 #3. Trey Moses-906 Block Shots: #1. James Thompson IV-171 #2. Doug Taylor-146 #3. Trey Moses-138 Assists: #1. Tayler Persons-447 #11. Trey Moses-283 (#’s 1-10 were all guards) Games Played: #1. Nick Perkins-137 #2. Jimond Ivey-133 #3. Trey Moses-132 Levi Bradley-132 Nate Navigato-132 Jaelan Sanford-132 James Thompson IV-132 2 Point FG% (minimum of 200 FG and 2 FG/G) #14. Trey Moses-53.49% Points Produced: Measures how many points a player produces and takes into consideration their made shots, assists, and offensive rebounds. #12. Trey Moses Total Rebound Percentage: This statistic is calculated by taking the total number of rebounds secured, both offensive and defensive, and dividing that number by the total number of rebounds available, while player is in the game. #9. Trey Moses Defensive Win Shares: Formula using a player’s Defensive Rating which is an estimate of the player's points allowed per 100 defensive possessions. #1. James Thompson IV #2. CJ Massinburg #3. Trey Moses * Former BSU player Lonnie Jones is MAC All-Time Leader* Total Defensive Rating: Measures how many points the player allowed per 100 possessions he individually faced while on the court. #9. Trey Moses *Tahjai Teague #1* It’s my opinion that this team was so under coached, that it’s amazing they won as many games as they did. Tayler is a fine player, but was given way too much free reign with the basketball to shoot at will, which caused terrible shot selection at times. He’s a career 45% shooter, 34% from 3 land. And although he was #1 in Assists during this span, he was also #1 in Turnovers. Again, not totally blaming the player, because the lack of coaching was very obvious. The inside game of BSU is vastly unused. Trey was part of this problem because he did not shoot the ball enough when he did get the ball, instead trying at times to make the perfect pass, which led to him creating too many turnovers. He placed #2 on the Turnover list. Tahjai falls in love with the outside shot, which he has no business shooting. He has way too much athletic ability around the rim, to be jacking up 22 foot flat-footed shots at a career 26%. You take out his 3’s, and he’s a 59% shooter from the field. A coach with an ounce of anything would have put a stop to that a long time ago. These were the 3 incoming players for 2016, and they’ve had, or are having, great careers. But it should have been much more... Alright, listen here Lyndon F***ing Baines Johnson 00, I'm not sure who you are but by golly you are 100% correct! I will warn you however that having 00 in your screen name is a very dangerous practice for fear you may somehow be tied to he who shall not be named but shall forever post long rambling, bullsh*t-filled incoherent justifications for mediocrity. You don't wanna even take a chance of catching any of that. |
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Post by williamtsherman on Mar 18, 2019 10:32:38 GMT -6
Speaking for myself, there will be no danger of confusing the two 00's since this 00 packed more plain facts into the above post than the other 00 has put into his last five years of frequent and voluminous posting.
And I wholeheartedly agree with many of the multiple good points raised by this 00 in his last paragraph. I knew before he ever stepped on campus that Teague hanging about the perimeter was going to be an issue here. All you had to do was look at his HS stats and listen to Whitford's ill-applied ideas and you could see that problem coming a mile away. Pretty sure I made a number of posts fretting over this possibility back then.
Despite the numbers which Trey and Taylor can be justifiably proud of, the sad but definite fact is that they will never be remembered as fondly as some past players whose number were far lower.
A good example is Bill Gillis, who is sometimes referenced as the type of big we used to get, but don't anymore. Trey's career numbers dwarf Bill's. Like in 91-92, Bill's numbers were basically the same as Trey's..... 11.1/7.6. (we played a much slower pace in those days, but still). But in the conference tourney, Bill grabbed the MAC by the throat and gave it a vicious hiding. (I remember that OU's frontline players refused to enter the game unless they were allowed to wear football pads to protect them from Bill. I'm not saying this actually happened, I'm just saying I remember it.) He was named tourney MVP despite us losing by 1 to Miami in the final. Bill was also a major contributor on a championship team the next year. Bill, and not Trey, will continue to be referenced as the type of big we need.
Same thing with Billy Butts and Duane Clemens compared to Tayler Persons. This is simply how sports and sports fans are.
But then, this whole line of reasoning only applies to a small and dwindling group of fans who remember the glory days and are still hanging around. So....big deal.
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Post by 00hmh on Mar 18, 2019 11:02:19 GMT -6
Despite the numbers which Trey and Taylor can be justifiably proud of, the sad but definite fact is that they will never be remembered as fondly as some past players whose number were far lower.
A good example is Bill Gillis, who is sometimes referenced as the type of big we used to get, but don't anymore.....I'm not saying this actually happened, I'm just saying I remember it.) He was named tourney MVP despite us losing by 1 to Miami in the final. Bill was also a major contributor on a championship team the next year. Bill, and not Trey, will continue to be referenced as the type of big we need.
Same thing with Billy Butts and Duane Clemens compared to Tayler Persons. This is simply how sports and sports fans are. Gillis had a phenomenal impact in that MAC tourney, deserved to be remembered for his ability to raise his level of play in that tourney environment. Part of that isn't about the stats, though, it is about the literal physical impact he made.
I have two fears. One, is with today's forum he'd just be another loser who failed to bring us the championship we deserve. And second is that with today's officiating he'd have played about 1/2 the minutes he did in his day... |
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Post by williamtsherman on Mar 18, 2019 11:11:42 GMT -6
My fear is that Whitford would have Bill and his 25" biceps out shooting threes.
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Post by bsuwolf99 on Mar 18, 2019 11:42:00 GMT -6
Somewhat unrelated, but damn what a player James Thompson IV could have been had he had a functioning brain.
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Post by cardfan on Mar 18, 2019 11:49:50 GMT -6
Yeah he could have been a monster.
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Post by 00hmh on Mar 18, 2019 11:54:49 GMT -6
Tayler is a fine player, but was given way too much free reign with the basketball to shoot at will, which caused terrible shot selection at times. He’s a career 45% shooter, 34% from 3 land. And although he was #1 in Assists during this span, he was also #1 in Turnovers. The inside game of BSU is vastly unused. Trey was part of this problem because he did not shoot the ball enough when he did get the ball, instead trying at times to make the perfect pass, which led to him creating too many turnovers. He placed #2 on the Turnover list. Tahjai falls in love with the outside shot, which he has no business shooting. He has way too much athletic ability around the rim, to be jacking up 22 foot flat-footed shots at a career 26%. You take out his 3’s, and he’s a 59% shooter from the field. A coach with an ounce of anything would have put a stop to that a long time ago. These were the 3 incoming players for 2016, and they’ve had, or are having, great careers. But it should have been much more... All of these observations seemed much more acutely painful this year. Persons forced offense in many games in his career, but in many games in past years shot better than he did this season. Trey did look for the pass first throughout his career. And Taj has never had a lot of ability to pass excepting inside. These were weaknesses. But.
I am not sure how much game coaching caused all of this, though or what choices we had. My theory continues to be that this team suffered far more from lack of outside shooting than we had all expected. What offensive options we had to remedy that are just not clear.
Ish being out for conference games for a long stretch and Mallers losing his touch were body blows to the best game plans. All of the above weaknesses including the shot selection by Teague and Persons relate to that and are compounded by defenses which could sit back and could harass the inside players. KJ was stymied by the packed lane.
In the end, Persons and Teague had to be the natural go to scorers and if they were both prevented (too often) from their best scoring chances by defense that clogged the lane inside they jacked up shots. I have no confidence that even had they were blessed with greater skill passing they had much choice. Often, especially with Teague, the shots were "open" and they had no one more reliable to pass to.
Both Trey and Taj were able to be swarmed by inside defenders who could afford to help off Mallers and did not have to guard KJ or worry about Trey of Taj outside, with neither of them scoring much if any outside 10 feet. Persons, Mallers, Hazen and Teague who might have been better if they could get to the basket, always confronted help as there was someone who the defense could drop back from into the lane. Nehls with a few exceptions was not effective,
Ish returned and Mallers was at least mediocre in a couple of games at the end, shooting was a little better maybe, but that was not enough. We needed a couple of shooters on the floor, and really never had that.
I am unconvinced that we could greatly change offensive approach, reduce turnovers or get enough offensive rebounding or do much of anything to overcome this deficit shooting.
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Post by 00hmh on Mar 18, 2019 11:59:38 GMT -6
Alright, listen here Lyndon F***ing Baines Johnson 00, I'm not sure who you are but by golly you are 100% correct! I will warn you however that having 00 in your screen name is a very dangerous practice for fear you may somehow be tied to he who shall not be named but shall forever post long rambling, bullsh*t-filled incoherent justifications for mediocrity. You don't wanna even take a chance of catching any of that. Gee, I kinda liked the actual explanations for his opinion instead of just firing off a frustrated complaint about the things that went wrong. |
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Post by 00hmh on Mar 18, 2019 12:12:58 GMT -6
It’s my opinion that this team was so under coached, that it’s amazing they won as many games as they did.....These were the 3 incoming players for 2016, and they’ve had, or are having, great careers. But it should have been much more... Coaching? We saw plenty to complain about, but it's a little too easy to just blame the coaching. We all felt like strangling somebody, usually the coach,when the team was flat or when the others guys made a long run and got away from us. OK. And, you nailed the weaknesses of some of the players, much of that beyond control during the season. The fairest complaint about Whitford this year is that he did not have enough shooting on the roster. Overall a lot of talent, but not enough shooting.
VERY frustrating this year that when we fell behind or had a last second possession, unlike some of the Whitford teams, we did not have the shooting to get back the game. Sadly, most of the year we just could not win the close games at the end.
So given that, what about the coaching? I think he was fundamentally right about a lot of things.
We were often right there. And Whitford is right that the MAC had a lot of teams a greater number of which were better than we had faced for some time.
For this team to reach its potential it had to be a defensive team, to win big we had to stop the other team, force them into hurrying the game. In a closer game we were destined to often win ugly if we were going to win. Teague, Trey, KJ, even Mallers were often good defenders. Hazen maybe gets an incomplete. We had to use the defense to turn the other team over and get out and run without giving up too many second chance baskets. Mallers, Persons, Ish against many players were barely adequate defenders and very much in trouble against quick players, but they were probably good enough that this game plan was probably our best bet, relying on help when they were beat, and counting on their offense to be enough. I've been bashed for this, but our lack of depth for that stretch in conference season really hurt on both counts. VERY hard for a player to play tough defense 30+ minutes and also have good offense down the stretch when the legs are gone. Ask Paris McCurdy, perhaps out best defender, and he will tell you he sacrificed scoring to play that D.
We can argue in another post about the recruiting but Whitford tried a variety of things to overcome this shooting deficit and failed. I am not sure that game coaching or planning was the big problem. It was shooting.
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