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Post by BSU Card Fan in AZ on Aug 15, 2015 7:50:38 GMT -6
The question is what caused the train wreck. If it is not the driver of the train, why blame him? Try answering the original question. What at this point has Whitford accomplished to make you believe he is a GOOD coach ? Your argument that he isn't really as-bad-as he appears is incredibly weak considering his horrific won-loss record. Anyway at least you admit it's been a train wreck so far. Ok, all the losses indicate a train wreck. No one argues that point. All some of us are saying is that circumstances dictated a lot of that. He came in late and had no real opportunity to do much year one. Add in the injuries and the weak talent and no depth. I don't care how good a coach you are, you won't be succesful. The point guard of the future was not his recruit and was pretty bad at handling the point. That's a serious problem. Our best big guy seemed to always be injured. Hes starting now to overcome the huge credibility issue with coaches sending kids to Ball State. That was created by the 2 prior staffs. Just saying he's now getting some decent looking players. Let's see how it works with finally having a decent set of players. Let's keep the injuries in check as well. Its like the old saying. Good coaches always seem to have good players.
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Post by comet on Aug 15, 2015 9:22:22 GMT -6
Try answering the original question. What at this point has Whitford accomplished to make you believe he is a GOOD coach ? Your argument that he isn't really as-bad-as he appears is incredibly weak considering his horrific won-loss record. Anyway at least you admit it's been a train wreck so far. Ok, all the losses indicate a train wreck. No one argues that point. All some of us are saying is that circumstances dictated a lot of that. He came in late and had no real opportunity to do much year one. Add in the injuries and the weak talent and no depth. I don't care how good a coach you are, you won't be succesful. The point guard of the future was not his recruit and was pretty bad at handling the point. That's a serious problem. Our best big guy seemed to always be injured. Hes starting now to overcome the huge credibility issue with coaches sending kids to Ball State. That was created by the 2 prior staffs. Just saying he's now getting some decent looking players. Let's see how it works with finally having a decent set of players. Let's keep the injuries in check as well. Its like the old saying. Good coaches always seem to have good players. Well said tiward. We're all disappointed in the results over the last two years, but I think the real problems have been stated and I don't think coaching is at the top of that list. I think the fact that we have really seen improvement in players like House and Calhoun is a defilnite indication that those kids are buying in, working hard and the coaching that they are getting. One of the few complaints that I have was Tyler and his academic woes. That just did not set well with me. We're only dealing with 10-12 players in basketball and there needs to be enough accountability to academics by the staff so that those things don't happen. That one was a big disappointment. We are seeing much better recruits, but we are still young. Hopefully the players are maturing and we will begin to see results.
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Post by journalismjoe76 on Aug 15, 2015 9:49:46 GMT -6
I'm on the side that's expecting a nice year from the Cards. While we might not - in theory - have a ten deep line-up, I do believe we have a deep bench. This will pay dividends as we near the end of the MAC season. Who knows - the shoe may be on the other foot - where we win games as the other team tires in the second half. I like what Whit has done so far. Like Comet, IMO Tyler's academic problems are the big blemish against Whit.
BTW - another thing I found interesting last year was play of some of the folks who transferred out under Billy that flourished in another program.
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Post by 00hmh on Aug 15, 2015 10:18:39 GMT -6
The question is what caused the train wreck. If it is not the driver of the train, why blame him? Try answering the original question. What at this point has Whitford accomplished to make you believe he is a GOOD coach ? Your argument that he isn't really as-bad-as he appears is incredibly weak considering his horrific won-loss record. Anyway at least you admit it's been a train wreck so far. That is not my argument. My argument is that he has done well at the things he can control and has focused on the right things, and that he is very likely to show this year he is on schedule for a long term recovery of a Program that was in deep trouble. The Program is significantly better today than the day he arrived. He has a system that is much more appealing to fans, one based on success at high level programs. This team plays hard. Talent is MUCH improved. Players he inherited have improved. We have some good players in each class. We have a little depth after two years of recruiting. Good prospects are looking at Ball State. These are signs of a good coach, doing what he can do.
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Post by Bigfoot on Aug 15, 2015 10:31:00 GMT -6
I tend to agree with the assessment we are heading in the right direction and view this season to be a critical one. Anything short of 14/15 wins will be a major disappointment for me.
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Post by lmills72 on Aug 15, 2015 14:32:33 GMT -6
I can see both sides of this argument, but I believe Whitford has had legitimate excuses for posting crappy records his first two years. Overall, I see the coaching glass more half-full than half-empty.
I do agree that we appear to be trying to play a brand of ball that is more appealing. Whether statistics reflect that might be questionable, but at least our players don't appear afraid to take a shot and they do play hard in general. I think the argument that the system is based on one that has had success at high-level programs is weak since virtually every losing program has a system based on success elsewhere. System doesn't mean anything if it's not backed up by execution. I also would agree that our talent in general is better, but … while I thought BT did a poor job of recruiting bigs, he did recruit Jarrod Jones, Kam, Majok Majok. Whit hasn't recruited any big better than them. While Teague and Moses might be those recruits, they haven't had the chance to prove it yet. On the other hand I would say that Sellers, Tyler and Weber are upgrades over the players BT recruited at those positions. Also in terms of recruiting, I think this next recruiting class will be big for Whit. We look pretty good in the backcourt and on the wings for the future, but we lose three front-court players, so it'll be interesting to see what happens with those scholarships.
Compared to BT, Whitford and staff appear to be gods of basketball development, but let's not make it sound like everyone has improved. There are several players, including one Whit recruited for last year's heralded freshman class, no longer with the program because they apparently didn't develop.
The other development I think people want to see is from the coach. We hired a coach without head coaching experience, and I think probably even Whitford might have a regret or two about how some things have been handled, how some decisions that have been made on and off the court. But now he's been running his own program for two years and I suspect everyone (including the coach and the AD) expects better results.
I'm rooting for Whitford because he seems like a decent guy and I think he has done a decent job, but he definitely needs to put some more games in the win column this year.
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Post by Bigfoot on Aug 15, 2015 16:35:53 GMT -6
I can't disagree with those points!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 6:34:30 GMT -6
"My argument is that he has done well at the things he can control"
It's almost impossible to have a reasonable discussion with anyone who makes a statement that obtuse. Since when is coaching anything but a bottom line business.
"on schedule for a long term recovery of a Program that was in deep trouble."
Really he was hired to provide a "LONG TERM RECOVERY", please share your schedule with us. Is it 5 years, 10 years, how about 20 ? Then explain how the program isn't still teetering on the exact same precipice it was when Taylor was terminated.
"The Program is significantly better today than the day he arrived. He has a system that is much more appealing to fans, one based on success at high level programs. This team plays hard. Talent is MUCH improved. Players he inherited have improved. We have some good players in each class. We have a little depth after two years of recruiting. Good prospects are looking at Ball State."
Really, SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER. I never knew the systemic approach that produced single digit total wins was appealing to fans and the hallmark of high level programs, interesting indeed. I'll give the recruiting might be better overall, however he is using the Xavier approach and offering a lot more players many of whom have some off the court baggage. We will all see if it works or not.
The question everyone is dodging is how many wins does he need to return for the 16-17 season. My opinion somewhere around 14.
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Post by williamtsherman on Aug 16, 2015 7:31:38 GMT -6
I was very favorably disposed towards Whitford when he came in, based on his background and the things he said. While not ready to give up on him, he has been more disappointing than exciting so far.
True, the talent he had to work with initially was bad, but his results have been worse than bad...let's face it, they've been terrible. I think the most optimistic take you can have is that he is new to head coaching and will learn and grow. That's not unreasonable, but that's not really what you'd like to have as the most optimistic thing you can say about your coach after two years.
He has had some recruiting successes, but very uneven, resulting in a roster with glaring, important holes after two and a half recruiting classes. People who like to think of themselves as clever may claim to understand his system and claim that it will paper over a seriously imbalanced roster, but this is nonsense. Opposing coaches who have recruited balanced rosters have systems also, and a system using a balanced roster will always prevail over a system with an unbalanced roster over the course of a season. This coming season, Whitford is relying on holdovers from Taylor at one key position, and a 3rd or 4th contingency plan recruit at another. This is troubling.
My general feeling, as of today, is that Whitford is heading towards being better than Taylor, but not towards a MAC championship. But experience has shown me that three years is right interval for judging a new coach. So I will wait to see this season's results, the demonstrated quality and potential of the most recent recruits, and the results of the this next recruiting class. Then I will pronounce.
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Post by 00hmh on Aug 16, 2015 7:45:53 GMT -6
"My argument is that he has done well at the things he can control" It's almost impossible to have a reasonable discussion with anyone who makes a statement that obtuse. Since when is coaching anything but a bottom line business. "on schedule for a long term recovery of a Program that was in deep trouble." Really he was hired to provide a "LONG TERM RECOVERY", please share your schedule with us. Is it 5 years, 10 years, how about 20 ? Then explain how the program isn't still teetering on the exact same precipice it was when Taylor was terminated. "The Program is significantly better today than the day he arrived. He has a system that is much more appealing to fans, one based on success at high level programs. This team plays hard. Talent is MUCH improved. Players he inherited have improved. We have some good players in each class. We have a little depth after two years of recruiting. Good prospects are looking at Ball State." Really, SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER. I never knew the systemic approach that produced single digit total wins was appealing to fans and the hallmark of high level programs, interesting indeed. I'll give the recruiting might be better overall, however he is using the Xavier approach and offering a lot more players many of whom have some off the court baggage. We will all see if it works or not. The question everyone is dodging is how many wins does he need to return for the 16-17 season. My opinion somewhere around 14. I see nothing obtuse in that statement. We agree, I hope, we were in deep trouble. We agree, I hope, that it is hard to dig out of a deep hole. A new coach cannot magically win without talent, teaching good fundamentals, motivating players to do their best, and just plain hard work and good effort in all parts of the job. His job description includes working with the community and establishing relationships in the recruiting footprint. That ultimately is the only way to win. Whitford is doing that. The bottom line of wins can occur early if the coach inherits talent and is at a school with a great tradition where players want to come and play ball. (even then it is not automatic, look at some of the problems IU has had) Whitford has done a good job. That he started at ground zero means we see wins a little later than we would like. He has a 5 year contract for a good reason. I think everyone expects us to win games this year and be at the top of the conference and contend for the MAC in another year. The questions critics dodge when they point to losses is what would you do differently and how many wins were really possible the last two years? There just was not the option to use good talent that had been badly coached. Whitford inherited a few good players, but not the kind of talent that could do much more. I doubt there was a coach in America who would have won a lot more games either year with our talent. Could we expect a coach to bring in more talent immediately? If we had paid a lot more money, say 750K+ for a coach with a proven record and a name to attract top JUCO talent immediately, we might have seen more the first two years. But we did not, and there would be no guarantee of that. How many wins this year? I would not look all that much at the number of wins by itself. I'd look at the recruiting, the way coach deals with academics and discipline which you mention, and how well the team plays, win or lose. Ultimately good play is measured by wins, but you can play very good basketball and can tell good things are on the way without hitting a particular number. If we hit that number but don't see good recruits and the kind of good play on the court that means we can expect more the next year it is not enough.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 8:19:40 GMT -6
"The questions critics dodge when they point to losses is what would you do differently and how many wins were really possible the last two years?"
Well given the current staff and talent combination I would have to give a resolute, absolute definitive, and highly accurate answer of 12. Look I realize two years isn't a long track record, but if you are trying to offer a good will based subjective argument its going to be hard to do coming off a year that totaled 7 wins and 17 straight loses to end the season. I guess in your world zero wins were possible, so yeah maybe he actually overachieved.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 8:20:58 GMT -6
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Post by BSU Card Fan in AZ on Aug 16, 2015 8:47:55 GMT -6
I believe this horse is finally dead.
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Post by thebsukid on Aug 16, 2015 12:43:00 GMT -6
We will never know but lasts years team started better and suddenly we were without our PG, #2 Guard, and Center. The team in my view would have easily won double digits with the entire starting line up staying intact.
This years team will win at least 15 games and very likely more in my view. As a recruiter, Whit has done quite well...he's recruiting in state and getting several All Staters..plus just had a great recruiting class and another All Stater transfer in who was named the best Freshman in his previous conference.
Get ready for some of our best seasons since the 90's.
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Post by bsu0 on Aug 17, 2015 8:18:48 GMT -6
Now you know why I love my fraternity brother ''The Kid''. From your mouth to God's ears. We all love Ball State but no one loves the University more the my Brother. Yours in the Bond, #129
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