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Post by chirpchirpcards on Jan 7, 2019 18:39:11 GMT -6
Though I will say @sherm, my favorite highlight from the Colts/Texans Wild Card game was the Marlon Mack touchdown run and watching Nelson. If you haven't seen it, it's damn hilarious.
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Post by chirpchirpcards on Jan 7, 2019 18:39:58 GMT -6
Here's some hype. Or, is it just hype? You've told me I should trust your eyes. Not headlines. What do you see here? If we're being honest....it was holding |
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Post by 00hmh on Jan 7, 2019 18:41:12 GMT -6
.... the pro bowl voting has all the rigor and integrity of the Miss America Pageant..... I think it's getting a little ridiculous how little credit these three have received compared to the Nelson hype phenomenon. I agree with the first part, but think the whole OL now getting a lot of credit. Don't think that means QN credit is just hype though. You're wrong on that. |
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Post by cardfan on Jan 7, 2019 18:51:35 GMT -6
Ryan Kelly makes a huge difference. When he’s out the rushing numbers drop. Point being the entire oline is really good and operating well, especially when Kelly plays.
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Post by thebsukid on Jan 8, 2019 14:01:21 GMT -6
General, I understand defending your position, but a Pro Bowl Guard as a rookie that many football commentators absolutely rave about...and offensive line that has protected Luck as the franchise QB better than almost all other teams in the NFL....a bit of a running game again...9 out of the last 10 or something like that...a first round playoff win on the road and only a 5 point underdog against arguably one of the top two NFL teams this season at KC....I mean how you don't support most everything they are doing right now is well past me....maybe I'm just stupid or maybe.....
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Post by williamtsherman on Jan 8, 2019 14:27:40 GMT -6
Well, you know, you can be happy with 90% of the job someone is doing and still criticize the other 10%. I don't see anything odd about that. What point are you trying to make? Do you even know?
I would still much prefer to have instead of Nelson, say, Calvin Ridley and two additional 2nd round picks....which Ballard could have turned into who knows what.
And actually, I've been thinking a lot lately about how bummed I still am that Josh McDaniels backed out of the job....I'm sure most other Colts fans are too. |
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Post by williamtsherman on Jan 8, 2019 20:30:40 GMT -6
BUT AT A MUCH MORE IMPORTANT POSITION
I read a stat on the tweeters (can't find it now but it was from one of those stat aggregate accounts, PFF or ESPN Next Level Stats, etc. one of those) after the Colts/Texans game that on more than 50% of the offensive snaps in the Wild Card game, Watt, Clowney, or both were either lined up on the interior, or stunted to take on an interior lineman. I'll also remind you that the reigning (and likely back to back) DPOY is a tackle, not an edge rusher. Your over-simplification that the tackle position is the most important position due to "edge rushers" is a fallacy of tradition. Much like the NBA has moved away from the standard PG, SG, SF, PF, C to a more position-less game, so too has the NFL in terms of the front four on the D-line. Rushers are lining up in all manner of different positions to try to create mismatches and confusion. Gone are the days where the Freeney's and Mathis' of the NFL would sweep around the tackle every snap regardless of down, distance, or field position. The Colts ran for over 200 yards against the Texans, including a franchise playoff record 148 from Mack, and over 70% of those rushes started on the interior. Another little nugget. I'm not arguing the should they/shouldn't they for Q, as I don't think you're ever likely to change your mind, and I don't have much interest in trying to make an argument for/against. I'm simply providing an outlook that you may be slightly overstating your case on whether the tackle position is truly the most important position on the offensive line in today's NFL. No, you are going too far here: "Your over-simplification that the tackle position is the most important position due to "edge rushers" is a fallacy of tradition." Wrong. It's not an "over simplification"...it's still the truth. Possibly somewhat less pronounced than in years past but still true. For example, check out the link for a list of top sackers this year. The top 13 are all listed as "OLB" or "DE". Finally, tied for 14th you get DeForest Buckner, listed as "DT" with 12 sacks. These guys may occasionally stunt, or line up out of normal position, but the biggest threat still comes overwhelmingly from outside. And common sense and Sri Lankans will tell you, it's simply easier to get around another person if you have wide open space to one side, rather than a tangle of extremely large men wrestling on both sides or you. No need to over complicate this. top sackersYou're going way too far here: "Your over-simplification that the tackle position is the most important position due to "edge rushers" is a fallacy of tradition. |
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Post by chirpchirpcards on Jan 8, 2019 22:45:58 GMT -6
I read a stat on the tweeters (can't find it now but it was from one of those stat aggregate accounts, PFF or ESPN Next Level Stats, etc. one of those) after the Colts/Texans game that on more than 50% of the offensive snaps in the Wild Card game, Watt, Clowney, or both were either lined up on the interior, or stunted to take on an interior lineman. I'll also remind you that the reigning (and likely back to back) DPOY is a tackle, not an edge rusher. Your over-simplification that the tackle position is the most important position due to "edge rushers" is a fallacy of tradition. Much like the NBA has moved away from the standard PG, SG, SF, PF, C to a more position-less game, so too has the NFL in terms of the front four on the D-line. Rushers are lining up in all manner of different positions to try to create mismatches and confusion. Gone are the days where the Freeney's and Mathis' of the NFL would sweep around the tackle every snap regardless of down, distance, or field position. The Colts ran for over 200 yards against the Texans, including a franchise playoff record 148 from Mack, and over 70% of those rushes started on the interior. Another little nugget. I'm not arguing the should they/shouldn't they for Q, as I don't think you're ever likely to change your mind, and I don't have much interest in trying to make an argument for/against. I'm simply providing an outlook that you may be slightly overstating your case on whether the tackle position is truly the most important position on the offensive line in today's NFL. No, you are going too far here: "Your over-simplification that the tackle position is the most important position due to "edge rushers" is a fallacy of tradition." Wrong. It's not an "over simplification"...it's still the truth. Possibly somewhat less pronounced than in years past but still true. For example, check out the link for a list of top sackers this year. The top 13 are all listed as "OLB" or "DE". Finally, tied for 14th you get DeForest Buckner, listed as "DT" with 12 sacks. These guys may occasionally stunt, or line up out of normal position, but the biggest threat still comes overwhelmingly from outside. And common sense and Sri Lankans will tell you, it's simply easier to get around another person if you have wide open space to one side, rather than a tangle of extremely large men wrestling on both sides or you. No need to over complicate this. top sackersYou're going way too far here: "Your over-simplification that the tackle position is the most important position due to "edge rushers" is a fallacy of tradition. Except the Los Angeles Rams own website lists Aaron Donald as a DT. |
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Post by chirpchirpcards on Jan 8, 2019 22:49:15 GMT -6
And in case you needed proof, Sherm, here is a video showing Aaron Donald's 2018 sacks, and on every single one he's lined up on the inside.
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Post by 00hmh on Jan 9, 2019 7:27:57 GMT -6
Sherm slightly overboard on the general proposition about pass rush. Not a lot. But he's well off base evaluating Nelson.
Not close to being the incompetent wasted pick of an "average" impact player he's made it out to be.
Nelson is a freak, there was no clear better pick.
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Post by williamtsherman on Jan 9, 2019 10:12:39 GMT -6
Your definition of "freak" is pretty loose. He's allowed two sacks. How many does an average guard allow? If he was a true freak, he'd be playing tackle, but he has trouble dealing with lateral movement. Why didn't the colts line get better when the "freak" was added? It actually got better once two competent tackles were in place. Not only is that the fact, it is exactly what you would have expected to happen using common sense.
You're just regurgitating the current media narrative hype.
Here's a quote from Pro Football Focus from an article on the Houston game:
"Much will be made of rookie left guard Quenton Nelson‘s pancake block of Jadeveon Clowney (he was tripped) in pass protection (pancakes in pass pro mean nothing), but his play in his first playoff game was shaky at best. Nelson was beat a few times in pass protection by Whitney Mercilus and also committed two penalties. "
I have no idea how the guy made this evaluation, but I suspect he put more into than the average media guy.
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Post by williamtsherman on Jan 9, 2019 10:15:30 GMT -6
No, you are going too far here: "Your over-simplification that the tackle position is the most important position due to "edge rushers" is a fallacy of tradition." Wrong. It's not an "over simplification"...it's still the truth. Possibly somewhat less pronounced than in years past but still true. For example, check out the link for a list of top sackers this year. The top 13 are all listed as "OLB" or "DE". Finally, tied for 14th you get DeForest Buckner, listed as "DT" with 12 sacks. These guys may occasionally stunt, or line up out of normal position, but the biggest threat still comes overwhelmingly from outside. And common sense and Sri Lankans will tell you, it's simply easier to get around another person if you have wide open space to one side, rather than a tangle of extremely large men wrestling on both sides or you. No need to over complicate this. top sackersExcept the Los Angeles Rams own website lists Aaron Donald as a DT.
You'll need to take that up with NFL.com....I'm simply telling you what their stats say. Donald appears to be an outlier....unless you think NFL.com made the same mistake with all the other listed OLB's and DE's.
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Post by 00hmh on Jan 9, 2019 12:24:40 GMT -6
Your definition of "freak" is pretty loose. He's allowed two sacks.
Not really. Of course I don't define a lineman by sack stats. I am agreeing with you that in general terms in that the pass protection part of line play is critical but you are ignoring most everything else and riding that a little too much here.
Casual review of game video finds him consistently dominating as an individual on run plays and beyond just preventing sacks on his own helps out his LT and C in protection. Both good on their own but benefiting from his being there.
The nasty factor he brings isn't easily measured, probably also worth mention apart from any statistic.
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Post by thebsukid on Jan 9, 2019 13:26:01 GMT -6
I made my points General, and I believe virtually everyone here understands them....the fact is that you were dead ass wrong on the Colts...10-6 and a playoff win...you had them pretty much buried. Luck from your point mathematically would doubtfully play well again if at all....Nelson, a Pro Bowler was a bad draft pick...the list goes on....your a negative willy...thats your right...but get in my face or ask me if I know what Im saying and I'll give it right back...I think you've been drinking the Muncie water to long....it makes one toxic.
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Post by chirpchirpcards on Jan 9, 2019 15:27:02 GMT -6
You'll need to take that up with NFL.com....I'm simply telling you what their stats say. Donald appears to be an outlier....unless you think NFL.com made the same mistake with all the other listed OLB's and DE's.
I don't think nfl.com made a mistake with anyone else, just pointing out that Donald has led the league the last two years from an interior position. (I also noticed that I forgot to post the youtube video cause I'm forgetful as shit, so here's that www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JVOKfy4KuA ) |
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