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Post by williamtsherman on Oct 2, 2015 12:09:25 GMT -6
Are you aware that your KY all star scored zero points in a game against OH where his team scored over 100? I'm not saying he's completely hopeless, but rather that you should pick something other than that KY/OH all star game, if you want to talk him up.
Coaches who manage to recruit balanced teams win the MAC. It's quite difficult to recruit a balanced team because there are so few quality frontcourt players potentially available to MAC programs. There are simply a lot fewer humans over 6-7 as compared to humans under 6-7. But there are always a couple MAC coaches who manage to turn the trick. All the other teams are at an enormous disadvantage to them. This is why frontcourt recruiting is THE key to mac coaching success.
How well has Whitford faired in this key task after 2.5 recruiting classes? Somewhere between below average and terrible, depending mostly on how Teague develops. How many more chances should he get? Well he's going to get at least one more whether any one likes it or not. My personal feeling is that, if you can't do something in 3.5 tries, then you probably just can't do it and should let someone else try. BSU has traditionally allowed 6 tries, but it think that's over generous and we have paid a steep price for it.
Actually our team this year IS balanced in the sense that we are frighteningly weak at both ends of the roster. That will be half fixed next year with Persons, but this year, we are going to struggle awfully when our 3's aren't falling. To get to 15 wins will take a much better job of coaching than Whitford as thus far demonstrated.
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Post by 00hmh on Oct 2, 2015 14:45:27 GMT -6
I generally buy Sherman's argument on principle, up to a point. We will fail to see great results if we don't see some evidence after the next recruiting class that we have some good big men not just good recruits overall. I probably disagree with him about what the "balance" is in that respect. I also agree with Sherman that in fact that only a few MAC coaches accomplish recruiting good big men in any given year. It is not clear on that count why he thinks Whitford compares so unfavorably...NOBODY in this league signs even ONE high performing big man a year, and in fact it is VERY rare to have more than 3 high impact big recruits over 4 years.
I mostly disagree with his extremely negative assessment of the results. He doesn't give much credit for the good recruits signed, and he also starts by stretching Whitford's recruiting to 2 1/2 classes.
1. You have done well to get 4 Indiana all stars in 2 years. The overall quality of signings is in fact at least average or above average, and the number of good big men signed if it is below average is not in fact "terrible" either on the count of quantity or quality when you factor in the quality of other signings. After all you don't sign another "average" big man at the cost of NOT signing Sellers or Tyler. Sherman does accurately point out that Moses best credential is not his play as an all star, and like most freshmen big men in the MAC he has work to do, but he conveniently overlooks how well he played over his last season in HS. The big players we see play well, maybe play after college, generally develop over 4 years, rarely come out of the box into the starting lineup and have high impact. 2. He wants to call the record 2 1/2 years, but in fact his first year he did not have a normal allotment of scholarships or a close to half a year to fill them. And on top of that, most good big men are long gone by the time he got started, and you only have a chance with many recruits if you were in on their recruiting a year or so ahead of signing. In fact, along with doing what he could do, he did some good groundwork that first year which helped him establish himself in state. I agree here with the kid that it is very relevant he is getting some of the good Indiana players.
3. On the issue of "balance" I think Whitford is smart to want good players at every position and probably intends to play a bit on the small side. That changes how many big men we need, and how good at a traditional big man role that they need to be. He comes from a successful power conference school that did well with that model. If we want to be at the top we need good big players. But. Maybe not as many as Sherman would like, maybe not as good. Especially if we have always 4 other good players on the court and good players coming off the bench.
So Bottom line: I think Sherman is right that we will struggle at times this year. But, I think he underestimates our scoring in the paint, with smaller players. And, after all, this is a young team that should struggle a little. 15 wins and we are on track.
I am not hypnotized by the record of the last two years. We lost some games the first year to get a new system established, playing with players who were not a particularly good fit. And if, surprise, a first year head coach made mistakes, I don't see such a big problem. I think the second year was not so much coaching error as injury and lack of depth. So I definitely disagree with Sherm's conclusion that we need a big improvement in coaching the talent we have.
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Post by lmills72 on Oct 2, 2015 21:25:05 GMT -6
I would agree with the idea that there's more than one way to win a basketball game, thus maybe you can win with a slightly different roster make-up, a different philosophy.
That said, we have three big men who will play their final season this year. Even if you're going to play with a smaller lineup, I'd suggest that you'd still need to replace those guys with at least two players in the 6-7, 6-9 range.
And the thing about playing a little differently is that it's fine to try to do so, but at some point you have to prove you can win that way. Whitford has yet to come close to doing that.
For me, whether or not Whitford should return for a fourth year will be decided more on this season's on-court performance than the 2016 recruiting class. Certainly, though, if he can put some more games in the win column this year, he'll need that recruiting class for continuity.
One thing I don't think the staff or anyone else should be able to use as an excuse this year is youth. This ISN'T a young team. In Davis, Calhoun, House and Belcaster, we have a group of players who will be in their third year with this program. In Wells, Weber, Gill and Smith, we have four players who have plenty of collegiate experience. That's 8 players, each preparing to enter their third to fifth year in a collegiate program. That's plenty of experience.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2015 8:02:11 GMT -6
"I mostly disagree with his extremely negative assessment of the results."
What ? Provide a list of positive on court results.
Pulling some Indiana All Stars is hardly a major accomplishment or some kind of precursor to future wins.
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Post by 00hmh on Oct 3, 2015 8:29:22 GMT -6
We lose Gill, Wells and Bo this year. Whether Gill plays much or not, is not clear, but I think Wells and Bo will play a lot of minutes and need to be replaced. If Moses develops quickly, he will share minutes at center with Bo and Wells this year and take more minutes next year.
House and Teague return, Weber will play up front some, too. Teague and Weber are the kind of triple threat players Whitford likes players who will be stretch forwards more than inside players. House is a guy who will play in the lane and score inside, but isn't long and has to use his strength and play vewry hard to defend inside. Having depth will help our smaller inside players be better, they won't have to do so much heavy lifting, or not for as much time anyway.
We will be OK up front this year, not terrible as Sherman pessimistically predicts.
I heartily agree with you Mills, we do need to recruit at least good big man in this next class, mostly to replace or become the player coach wants Wells to be. We need size on defense. Whitford talks about it in terms of protecting the rim, and wants that player who stays near the basket. He wants to depend on help defense playing the "pack line" ideas out of Wisconsin's defensive system. Otherwise, we are in trouble and getting one big kid ready to play major minutes is a necessity. If we get two it is great. Either way Moses has to develop pretty quickly into a reliable post defender.
I'll take a wild ass guess that the staff has noticed this need...
Given the difficulty of signing a big guy out of HS ready to play, I'd guess we recruit big guys all year but probably end up having to go the JUCO route and will be in suspense about the situation for most of the year.
I'd guess we look for another quick guard and the best "player" available regardless of position or size to go along with two bigs to fill the scholarships we will have.
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Post by 00hmh on Oct 3, 2015 8:39:19 GMT -6
"I mostly disagree with his extremely negative assessment of the results." What ? Provide a list of positive on court results. Pulling some Indiana All Stars is hardly a major accomplishment or some kind of precursor to future wins. ?? Getting good recruits is a very good predictor of good future results. Looking at past results on the court, but results obtained WITHOUT enough experienced and talented players, is not a good predictor. Sherman and I would agree on this. We may disagree on the quality of players recruited a little, but that is more about how much the recruiting results depend on size. But, perhaps only a little bit, even on that count. I think he is, all of us are, understandably numbed by too many years of watching us lose games. He'll come around this year. Hope you do, too.
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Post by 00hmh on Oct 3, 2015 8:46:33 GMT -6
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Post by thebsukid on Oct 3, 2015 16:25:03 GMT -6
I'm going to say how a player performed during 4 years of HS and his character are more important than how many points he scored in 1 all star game. By the way, speaking of one game, did you see his results in the second game in the Bahamas against former D-1 players?? By next year, we could be starting 4 Indiana All Stars and 1 Kentucky All Star. I am always protective of Coaches with the exception of Ronnie. This guy will show this year that he's moving it in the right direction!! I said we will win 19 incl all games...anyone here not satisfied with 15 or more wins? Would anyone not agree that 15 or more is not moving in the right direction?? Also, many on the board use to cry we weren't recruiting enough in state players? ?!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2015 9:12:45 GMT -6
"I mostly disagree with his extremely negative assessment of the results." What ? Provide a list of positive on court results. Pulling some Indiana All Stars is hardly a major accomplishment or some kind of precursor to future wins. ?? Getting good recruits is a very good predictor of good future results. Looking at past results on the court, but results obtained WITHOUT enough experienced and talented players, is not a good predictor. Sherman and I would agree on this. We may disagree on the quality of players recruited a little, but that is more about how much the recruiting results depend on size. But, perhaps only a little bit, even on that count. I think he is, all of us are, understandably numbed by too many years of watching us lose games. He'll come around this year. Hope you do, too. Ha.................What is this 1985 ? It's now all about summer AAU evaluations, not making some media sponsored All Star team. I agree recruiting is very important, but the Indiana All Star team is no longer a meaningful metric. You keep pointing to an inclusion as if it's some kind of proof recruiting is on a major upswing. Jim Beoheim once said "Half of the McDonalds All Americans make little to no impact at the collegiate level", and he was right.
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Post by 00hmh on Oct 4, 2015 10:34:12 GMT -6
It's now all about summer AAU evaluations, not making some media sponsored All Star team. I agree recruiting is very important, but the Indiana All Star team is no longer a meaningful metric. You keep pointing to an inclusion as if it's some kind of proof recruiting is on a major upswing. Jim Beoheim once said "Half of the McDonalds All Americans make little to no impact at the collegiate level", and he was right Being an Indiana All Star is hardly a bad thing. With all respect to the Syracuse coach, I have yet to see a McD's AA fail to make an impact in the MAC...so I would take a flyer on one if he was interested in BSU. Besides that, these 4 Indiana All Stars had multiple excellent AAU seasons. All are independently evaluated as good recruits. And even if that team may be media sponsored, selection to it is based not just on popularity in local press, there are a series of tryouts, performance in their Junior year in games against the seniors,. It is not just based on the hype generated by a group of hometown media. Your criticism of the All Star honor would actually be much more relevant if we were back in 1985. Even then,though, the top Indiana All Stars have a pretty good record in college ball. More relevant in the current discussion is that Sellers, Tyler and Persons are actually tested and proved by good freshman performance against college players. Besides all having good HS records, meriting media attention and honors, these are good recruits by any metric.
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Post by thebsukid on Oct 4, 2015 11:35:33 GMT -6
Totally disagree that being an Indiana All Star is not a good indicator, for example, when Sellers, Lyles, Persons and Tyler were on the same all star team along with others virtually all of these players went D1 and lets see Lyles is already a pro. All four of these players played in winning programs and some were nationally prominent. They also had good AAU evaluations. Persons was rated the top Freshman in his conference.
Also, I believe several people have forgotten how we started last year when Tyler and Z were on the floor with other starters!!!!!! I'd bet my house this team wins 15 or more and I have said possibly 19! Go Cards!!
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Post by bsu0 on Oct 5, 2015 5:29:34 GMT -6
KID!!!!!!! Do you know what people call fans who bet their house on 18 year old kids? HOMELESS!! When I see you on the streets of Indy with your tin cup my loose change is yours.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2015 7:32:30 GMT -6
Tahjai Teague, who you guys believe to be the best of our recruits, had exactly three offers, Ball State, Western Illinois, and San Jose State. He has some raw skills, but I wouldn't expect a lot from him this season. Trey Moses had a far better list of offers but is still only rated a two star. None of this means these guys won't be successful, however I'd be more than surprised if they have the abilities to overcome mediocre coaching.
"Sellers, Tyler and Persons are actually tested and proved by good freshman performance against college players "
What, remind me how many games we lost last year again.
"I'd bet my house this team wins 15 or more"
You would bet your house, or you will bet your house ? Although I am not sure I am interested in a house owned by anyone who is willing to make that bet.
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Post by 00hmh on Oct 5, 2015 9:20:18 GMT -6
Tahjai Teague, who you guys believe to be the best of our recruits, had exactly three offers, Ball State, Western Illinois, and San Jose State. He has some raw skills, but I wouldn't expect a lot from him this season. Trey Moses had a far better list of offers but is still only rated a two star. None of this means these guys won't be successful, however I'd be more than surprised if they have the abilities to overcome mediocre coaching. I am not sure how much Teague contributes next year. He is injured and won't practice for a while. He is a freshman despite a great deal of talent as indicated by your preferred metric of AAU accolades. I suggest he would have had more offers had he not committed early in the game to BSU. There are any number of stories indicating interest by other schools. He committed in October, like most of the best recruits we will ever sign he was under the radar to some degree. ny2lasports.com/article_one.aspx?articleid=2506Note he did well by your preferred metric of AAU performance, and also had a good senior year and All Star performance. He is a good recruit.
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Post by 00hmh on Oct 5, 2015 9:25:22 GMT -6
None of this means these guys won't be successful, however I'd be more than surprised if they have the abilities to overcome mediocre coaching. "Sellers, Tyler and Persons are actually tested and proved by good freshman performance against college players" What, remind me how many games we lost last year again. Moses as you point out was recruited by good schools based on his good performance. Sellers and Tyler did prove their skills against good competition. As Kid points out Tyler played well early, Sellers played well all year. Persons played well all year on another team. Persons, Moses and Teague of course had nothing to do in any way with our record last year, Tyler was not around for the conference season, Sellers was considered one of the top freshman in the MAC by those he played against. You aren't making much of a case for these kids being poor recruits by reference to last years record. Now, it's "mediocre coaching" that is the reason you expect they will never perform well. First you declare our coaching is poor due to poor recruiting. Now alternatively you argue that even if that isn't a good reason and that if it was after all good recruiting, the good recruits are still doomed to fail. Well, I agree the new recruits may not as freshmen make some huge impact. We should not expect that from freshmen, but I think Wells and the returning players with experience will improve and we will be much improved. That should be the measure of our coaching performance. I think the impact of our new freshmen will mostly be seen next year.
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