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Post by 00hmh on Mar 29, 2020 14:44:37 GMT -6
Whooeee! Cost of living just went down in Kzoo I guess when you factor this in as one of the “comps” come coach-search time, you might not be getting many tire kickers. Face it, the General’s plan may be the only thing left! Maybe the whole MAC...
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Post by redbirdman on Mar 29, 2020 21:58:06 GMT -6
WMU is now a hockey school as is Miami. Check attendance figures. They both will have a hard time finding BB coaches. They are paying Bates a very low figure & giving him a 2 yr deal.AD blames it on coronavirus but it's worse just no money! Well Sherm this is what you always wanted to do when we hired a coach we will see if it works there.
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Post by williamtsherman on Mar 30, 2020 6:30:26 GMT -6
Hiring the assistant of the current coach who has produced 7 years of poor results is not exactly the Sherman Plan....even if the contract is refreshingly sensible. Let's give WMU some credit for something else also. They would seem to lack the downtrodden acceptance of mediocrity that BSU has. Hawkins won a championship in his first year 03-04. Over the next 9 seasons in the Western division he was 1st 5 times, 2nd 3 times and 3rd once. then he won another championship in 13-14. Also throw in and NIT in 04-05. But after his second championship, things declined significantly the next 6 years. In the west - 6th twice, one 5th, one 4th, one 3rd. He did tie for first in the west once and was in the CIT one year during this period. (does all that sound familiar to anyone?). What happened after that second championship? I don't follow WMU closely enough to say for sure, but this sort of thing almost always is the result of recruiting burn out. Coaches just lose the energy necessary for the continual pursuit of 17 year old boys. (also sound familiar?). I'm sure Hawkins had his jock-sniffing, mediocrity-tolerating, excuse-making supporters still. With two championships on his record, he certainly deserved them more than certain other MAC west coaches. But the WMU administration apparently thinks they can do better. I envy their fans. Whatever happens with this new guy, WMU has much better prospects for eventual success because their administration actually WANTS it. Steve_Hawkins wikipedia record
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Post by 00hmh on Mar 30, 2020 7:50:48 GMT -6
Yeah, WMU is really showing their desire to be a top program! Nothing shows commitment like hiring an assistant at low pay. Why if only they had hired a HS coach, then we would know what real commitment to winning would look like.
That's where we went wrong. We used to do that. Ray's assistant almost got away but we lured him back.
But then we lost the winning path. Failed to retain Buck's guy to prove commitment. Who was Ronnie's top assistant? How did we miss out on making a commitment then? And again with Billy's top guy? We could have kept them too if we paid only half as much as we paid their boss.
Damn.
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Post by realitycheck on Mar 30, 2020 10:34:01 GMT -6
Hawkins was dead man walking this year. He was totally burned out. Agree with Sherm, he used to be the standard bearer of the West. Their teams were tough, aggressive and he actually recruited quality big guys. Shane Whittington was a stud and played with the Pacers a few years. Of course, he also stole Joe Reitz from HSE and he owned us for his 4 years in the MAC. Reitz then decided to be a football player and for grins played for the Colts for 8 years.
Clayton Bates doesn't exactly scream upgrade. He's been in the program for 15 years so he's a lifer. If he we a hot commodity as an assistant he would have left years ago. Plus, he didn't exactly get a ringing endorsement. The AD admitted they could't do a search so they just picked him. They bumped his base from 110 to 120 and with other add-ons he'll make another $100K. That puts his total comp less than Hawkins base. This feels like a placeholder hire and I wouldn't be buying a new house in KZoo if I were Bates.
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Post by williamtsherman on Mar 30, 2020 11:09:01 GMT -6
Yeah, WMU is really showing their desire to be a top program! Nothing shows commitment like hiring an assistant at low pay. Why if only they had hired a HS coach, then we would know what real commitment to winning would look like.
That's where we went wrong. We used to do that. Ray's assistant almost got away but we lured him back.
But then we lost the winning path. Failed to retain Buck's guy to prove commitment. Who was Ronnie's top assistant? How did we miss out on making a commitment then? And again with Billy's top guy? We could have kept them too if we paid only half as much as we paid their boss.
Damn.
Hey! Speaking of jock-sniffing, mediocrity-tolerating, excuse-making supporters...
A sensible person could see that I was not advocating hiring current assistants. In fact, I specifically mentioned that as being contrary to the Sherman Plan. With a key part of the Sherman Plan being an emphasis on fresh, innovative thinking, a current long-time assistant to your failed coach might be about the last person you would pursue. I do give WMU a bit of slack due to the COVID situation.
But WMU did get two things right that BSU seems utterly incapable of figuring out. 1) they cut loose a coach who had pretty clearly demonstrated he wasn't at all likely to win any championships any time soon (Note how comparable Hawkins last 7 seasons have been to Whitford's) 2) They put themselves in a position to quickly and easily make a change if the new guy doesn't work out. The willingness to do these things sets them apart from BSU's sclerotic, dipshit administration, and the respective fanbases should set their long term expectations accordingly.
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Post by cardfan on Mar 30, 2020 12:39:01 GMT -6
Hawkins was dead man walking this year. He was totally burned out. Agree with Sherm, he used to be the standard bearer of the West. Their teams were tough, aggressive and he actually recruited quality big guys. Shane Whittington was a stud and played with the Pacers a few years. Of course, he also stole Joe Reitz from HSE and he owned us for his 4 years in the MAC. Reitz then decided to be a football player and for grins played for the Colts for 8 years. Clayton Bates doesn't exactly scream upgrade. He's been in the program for 15 years so he's a lifer. If he we a hot commodity as an assistant he would have left years ago. Plus, he didn't exactly get a ringing endorsement. The AD admitted they could't do a search so they just picked him. They bumped his base from 110 to 120 and with other add-ons he'll make another $100K. That puts his total comp less than Hawkins base. This feels like a placeholder hire and I wouldn't be buying a new house in KZoo if I were Bates. Yeah I agree this guy is a short term solution and as soon as he has a bad year and things lighten up Beauregard will pull the plug and go big. That’s her normal style.
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Post by 00hmh on Mar 30, 2020 13:28:08 GMT -6
Yeah, WMU is really showing their desire to be a top program! Nothing shows commitment like hiring an assistant at low pay. Why if only they had hired a HS coach, then we would know what real commitment to winning would look like.
The willingness to do these things sets them apart... On the contrary it is typical of the MAC and mid majors who don't give high priority to being a top program.
Their plan is cheap and shortsighted. More motivated by budget than any desire take a real shot at improvement.
Firing a relatively unpopular old coach at low cost hardly requires much courage or creativity. Or sets them apart from anyone.
They perhaps make a disgruntled fan base happy for the moment, although I would not bet on that, and no doubt will claim to have dealt with a perceived problem decisively. But that is BS. Typical administrative double speak. You are buying the Kool Aid here. Firing Hawkins without much cost and relatively little prospect of improvement is kicking the can down the road for them.
In a year they will be talking about making a great long term hire. Right. Want to bet what criteria they will use. Same old, same old. It is the reality of mid major existence in most cases.
It's not the firing that is the thing, but the hiring that is possible when you have resources.
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Post by williamtsherman on Mar 30, 2020 14:25:46 GMT -6
"Firing a relatively unpopular old coach at low cost hardly requires much courage or creativity"
But yet BSU can't bring themselves to do it, can they? WMU's administration may not be the greatest, but they are certainly a step above BSU. Likewise this assistant guy might only have, let's say, a 20% chance of being successful, but Hawkins was a burnt out husk and had established a pretty clear ceiling over 7 years, and probably had no more than a 10% chance of further success. So the hire was certainly not a home run, and was in fact probably quite tepid, but yet they might have doubled their chances of success anyway. This may have been to best move they had available to make in the current odd situation. BSU similarly has a very low bar to clear with attempting to hire an improvement over Whitford, but yet doesn't have the stones to do it.
Also, WMU has clearly established that Hawkins' recent level of success is NOT acceptable. That alone is worth something. This new guy should definitely have the motivation to do much better. Meanwhile, BSU extended Whitford after exactly ONE MAC tourney win, and is not anywhere near firing him despite having pretty much the same success as Hawkins the last 7 years. Whitford rather quickly demonstrated the motivational effect of this by decamping to California that summer instead of recruiting.
So if you want to say WMU's admin and their recent move is not that strong, you may be right. But compared to BSU they look like champs.
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Post by 00hmh on Mar 30, 2020 14:45:50 GMT -6
I am not so sure Western is looking lie a champ. More like a cheapskate administration who doesn't care much about quality of coaching because the budget is tight.
20% probability of this guy being successful by your definition of success is optimistic. By MAC AD standards that may be a good estimate, when they will generously extend him and give him a raise, too! Wow, what a victory, what champs!
You could be right that it takes stones to hire the assistant at half pay, though. Except the courageous AD will claim financial exigency and no doubt brag about reducing the athletic budget. The bravery will be that of a crusading cost cutter who had to make the tough decision to sacrifice winning, and is bravely facing an uphill battle to rebuild in 2 years.
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Post by williamtsherman on Mar 30, 2020 15:12:48 GMT -6
Never mind. You're not capable of grasping the concept of comparative merit as distinct from absolute merit, so there is little point in continuing.
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Post by sag on Mar 30, 2020 15:22:30 GMT -6
And you think coaches wear jockstraps, and while I don’t know for sure, I highly doubt it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2020 15:24:52 GMT -6
OK, so we've determined that Western Michigan and Ball State are rowing the same cheapskate boat.......
Interesting. Row, Row, Row........sounds like a trademark that could be registered.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2020 23:23:29 GMT -6
The Clayton Bates head coach era at Western Michigan is not exactly starting out in exemplary fashion; both leading scorers from the past season (Brandon Johnson and Michael Flowers) have entered the transfer portal.
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Post by cardfan on Apr 1, 2020 4:57:57 GMT -6
Yeah he’s going to be starting from scratch up there. There are some kids who shot the ball really well against us during the second half of our game where we had the huge lead, but overall I didn’t see much talent there beyond Flowers and Johnson.
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