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Post by rmcalhoun on Apr 17, 2021 16:31:00 GMT -6
Gotta give him some props..He bounced back this article gives a more honest assessment of the program
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Post by rmcalhoun on Apr 17, 2021 16:32:08 GMT -6
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Post by williamtsherman on Apr 17, 2021 17:13:50 GMT -6
There is certainly less intelligence insulting going on here as compared to the previous articles. The Mac-west titles thing is brought up again, but in general he seems less inclined to print Whitford's lame excuses at face value.
I wonder this though: the mac west thing is not mentioned until the 8th paragraph. How many people with enough interest in BSU basketball to read to the 8th paragraph AREN'T aware that the mac west was such a cesspool of bad basketball through Whitford's tenure and for years before?
Thank goodness the MAC has put the west division out of it's misery. "Boy I really miss those great teams and thrilling rivalries from the old MAC West" Nobody will say....ever. Of course weak coaches looking to pump up their dismal program records (e.g. Taylor, Whitford) will miss it, but nobody else.
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Post by cardfan on Apr 17, 2021 19:13:38 GMT -6
I think Guskey got some truth serum from fans after the last article so good for him for being a little less accepting of what’s fed to him re:basketball.
Whitford was a little more reasonable too but he still talks more in terms of “culture” than he does winning. At some point you have to win, otherwise what are you doing? And I don’t buy his premise that he’s got guys on the roster still who can develop into players like Calhoun and Franco did. And how long ago did those guys play? His first few years. Thomas is the only one who looks like he’s got all Mac talent and he’s been too flakey and inconsistent to reach that level. Whitford is correct that having a chance to win depends heavily on what transfers he brings in. It’s got to be a starter level talent who truly produces. Bringing in more Doo Doo’s won’t mean jack. And on the “culture” topic. How good is your culture really if A) you never win anything; B) your best players don’t want to stick around to see what they can accomplish WITH Whitford?
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Post by williamtsherman on Apr 18, 2021 6:16:01 GMT -6
I had the same thoughts on his references to the "culture". I'm thinking - if you've won two conf tourney games in 8 years, might you be less concerned about finding players to match your existing culture and maybe try...oh I don't know...blasting your culture into tiny pieces and building something different?
But....whatever. The soon-to-happen extension will show again how out of touch people like Herman and I are with the vision of the administration for mens basketball.
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Post by realitycheck on Apr 18, 2021 7:33:57 GMT -6
This is still not a very good story. The overall theme is that the state of our program is more a matter of the rise of the transfer portal which is patently false. Our recruitment and development of players has been average at best. As noted by many, our record has been built on a foundation of weak non con and MAC West opponents. The "culture" is built on Whitfords weak leadership style and a "me before we" approach that encourages a do what's best for you not the team.
This article is trying to straddle the line and blurs the truth. The truth is we've peaked under this coach and we aren't going anywhere under his culture. Interest in our men's basketball program has never been lower. It's not exciting or relevant and it SHOULD and COULD be despite the idiotic excuses by the intellectual or blind followers. There is never any guarantee what a new leader could bring but our program and school deserve better than this.
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Post by sweep on Apr 18, 2021 7:51:28 GMT -6
"“Kids that have the right cultural characteristics or, really, the right competitive character".............What is so special about BSU's culture or competitive identity ? Why does he keep bringing this up ? This is just f------ stupid.
This program, if you even want to call it that, has no identity at all and he wants to talk about culture. Whitford is freaking delusional.
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Post by villagepub on Apr 19, 2021 7:33:13 GMT -6
There is certainly less intelligence insulting going on here as compared to the previous articles. The Mac-west titles thing is brought up again, but in general he seems less inclined to print Whitford's lame excuses at face value. I wonder this though: the mac west thing is not mentioned until the 8th paragraph. How many people with enough interest in BSU basketball to read to the 8th paragraph AREN'T aware that the mac west was such a cesspool of bad basketball through Whitford's tenure and for years before? Thank goodness the MAC has put the west division out of it's misery. "Boy I really miss those great teams and thrilling rivalries from the old MAC West" Nobody will say....ever. Of course weak coaches looking to pump up their dismal program records (e.g. Taylor, Whitford) will miss it, but nobody else. When you win the MAC West Division in basketball, it's like coming in 6th or 7th place in the conference.
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Post by rmcalhoun on Apr 19, 2021 8:57:14 GMT -6
There is certainly less intelligence insulting going on here as compared to the previous articles. The Mac-west titles thing is brought up again, but in general he seems less inclined to print Whitford's lame excuses at face value. I wonder this though: the mac west thing is not mentioned until the 8th paragraph. How many people with enough interest in BSU basketball to read to the 8th paragraph AREN'T aware that the mac west was such a cesspool of bad basketball through Whitford's tenure and for years before? Thank goodness the MAC has put the west division out of it's misery. "Boy I really miss those great teams and thrilling rivalries from the old MAC West" Nobody will say....ever. Of course weak coaches looking to pump up their dismal program records (e.g. Taylor, Whitford) will miss it, but nobody else. When you win the MAC West Division in basketball, it's like coming in 6th or 7th place in the conference. This is true
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Post by 00hmh on Apr 19, 2021 9:20:46 GMT -6
When you win the MAC West Division in basketball, it's like coming in 6th or 7th place in the conference. This is true Nah, let's not give the East that big a lead. Recent history it was probably 3rd to, maybe, 5th in a bad year. There are usually no more than 2 teams significantly above the rest in the MAC, and maybe the next tier is 3-7 mostly equal. BSU is now in that second tier.
Not so sure about next year...
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Post by cbcjanney on Apr 19, 2021 11:06:45 GMT -6
Nah, let's not give the East that big a lead. Recent history it was probably 3rd to, maybe, 5th in a bad year. There are usually no more than 2 teams significantly above the rest in the MAC, and maybe the next tier is 3-7 mostly equal. BSU is now in that second tier.
Not so sure about next year...
Except that Whitford has a losing record against every MAC East team, both in his career and over the last 5 years even if you throw out his early dismal years: Opponent (career / last 5 yrs) Vs Akron (3W-8L / 3W – 4L) Vs Bowling Green (3W – 11L / 2W – 7L) Vs Buffalo (3W – 10L / 2W – 7L) Vs Kent State (3W – 8L / 3W – 4L) Vs Miami OH (4W – 7L / 2W – 4L) Vs Ohio (2W – 10L / 2W – 5L) Whitford total vs MAC East career = 18W – 54L, 25% win % Whitford last 5 years vs MAC East = 14W – 31L, 31% win % If we're in the 3-7 range, I think it's almost at 7. Also considering career-wise he's below .500 vs Toledo and right at .500 vs WMU, it would be easy to peg us more in the 6-9 range than 3-7. The MAC East champion, runner-up, and NCAA tourney rep has rotated amongst pretty much all schools except Miami over Whitford's tenure. In the West, it hasn't rotated as much but that's primarily due to certain NIU's, EMU's, CMU's constantly being bottom-feeders. Toledo and BSU get some occasional East wins while cleaning up vs the West bottom, but nothing to indicate we'd consistently be in the upper-half of the East.
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Post by cardfan on Apr 19, 2021 11:29:41 GMT -6
Nah, let's not give the East that big a lead. Recent history it was probably 3rd to, maybe, 5th in a bad year. There are usually no more than 2 teams significantly above the rest in the MAC, and maybe the next tier is 3-7 mostly equal. BSU is now in that second tier.
Not so sure about next year...
Except that Whitford has a losing record against every MAC East team, both in his career and over the last 5 years even if you throw out his early dismal years: Opponent (career / last 5 yrs) Vs Akron (3W-8L / 3W – 4L) Vs Bowling Green (3W – 11L / 2W – 7L) Vs Buffalo (3W – 10L / 2W – 7L) Vs Kent State (3W – 8L / 3W – 4L) Vs Miami OH (4W – 7L / 2W – 4L) Vs Ohio (2W – 10L / 2W – 5L) Whitford total vs MAC East career = 18W – 54L, 25% win % Whitford last 5 years vs MAC East = 14W – 31L, 31% win % If we're in the 3-7 range, I think it's almost at 7. Also considering career-wise he's below .500 vs Toledo and right at .500 vs WMU, it would be easy to peg us more in the 6-9 range than 3-7. The MAC East champion, runner-up, and NCAA tourney rep has rotated amongst pretty much all schools except Miami over Whitford's tenure. In the West, it hasn't rotated as much but that's primarily due to certain NIU's, EMU's, CMU's constantly being bottom-feeders. Toledo and BSU get some occasional East wins while cleaning up vs the West bottom, but nothing to indicate we'd consistently be in the upper-half of the East. That's too many facts. Stop it.
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Post by williamtsherman on Apr 19, 2021 11:52:23 GMT -6
Nah, let's not give the East that big a lead. Recent history it was probably 3rd to, maybe, 5th in a bad year. There are usually no more than 2 teams significantly above the rest in the MAC, and maybe the next tier is 3-7 mostly equal. BSU is now in that second tier.
Not so sure about next year...
BSU is by no means a permanent, regular member of the 2nd tier. In 8 years, Whitford has shown quite conclusively that the 2nd tier is his upper limit. In other years, it's the 8-12 place level.....whatever tier you want to call that. Next year is looking much like a another drop into that lower tier (granted, the whole transfer thing makes previews tricky at this date)
As will soon be clearly shown, this is regarded by Goetz and the administration as a perfectly acceptable level for the program. Those of you who are still part of the fanbase, but are frustrated with continuing at this level....well, pardon me, but very frankly you're just stupid. Ball State isn't even TRYING to climb to the top of the MAC.
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Post by CallingBS on Apr 19, 2021 12:09:12 GMT -6
Nah, let's not give the East that big a lead. Recent history it was probably 3rd to, maybe, 5th in a bad year. There are usually no more than 2 teams significantly above the rest in the MAC, and maybe the next tier is 3-7 mostly equal. BSU is now in that second tier.
Not so sure about next year...
Except that Whitford has a losing record against every MAC East team, both in his career and over the last 5 years even if you throw out his early dismal years: Opponent (career / last 5 yrs) Vs Akron (3W-8L / 3W – 4L) Vs Bowling Green (3W – 11L / 2W – 7L) Vs Buffalo (3W – 10L / 2W – 7L) Vs Kent State (3W – 8L / 3W – 4L) Vs Miami OH (4W – 7L / 2W – 4L) Vs Ohio (2W – 10L / 2W – 5L) Whitford total vs MAC East career = 18W – 54L, 25% win % Whitford last 5 years vs MAC East = 14W – 31L, 31% win % If we're in the 3-7 range, I think it's almost at 7. Also considering career-wise he's below .500 vs Toledo and right at .500 vs WMU, it would be easy to peg us more in the 6-9 range than 3-7. The MAC East champion, runner-up, and NCAA tourney rep has rotated amongst pretty much all schools except Miami over Whitford's tenure. In the West, it hasn't rotated as much but that's primarily due to certain NIU's, EMU's, CMU's constantly being bottom-feeders. Toledo and BSU get some occasional East wins while cleaning up vs the West bottom, but nothing to indicate we'd consistently be in the upper-half of the East. Ah, those pesky facts
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Post by sweep on Apr 19, 2021 13:10:26 GMT -6
Nah, let's not give the East that big a lead. Recent history it was probably 3rd to, maybe, 5th in a bad year. There are usually no more than 2 teams significantly above the rest in the MAC, and maybe the next tier is 3-7 mostly equal. BSU is now in that second tier.
Not so sure about next year...
Ball State isn't even TRYING to climb to the top of the MAC.
That is 100% true.
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