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Post by david75bsu on Feb 8, 2022 14:21:31 GMT -6
You missed that Ball State has more tournament wins than any MAC School, though tied with Ohio at Seven. Lately not so good, historically one of the best teams. Also, 37 tournament wins, only eclipsed by Ohio and Miami with 38. The Cards were also the first sweet sixteen team in MAC history.
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Toledo
Feb 8, 2022 16:34:39 GMT -6
Post by 00hmh on Feb 8, 2022 16:34:39 GMT -6
One very short good tournament streak 30 years ago? 11 tournament appearances in 21 years seems to be a bit longer than a 'very short tournament streak.' OK. We had 20 years where we were very good, most of that in a 10 year period, I see only one tournament run of wins in the tournament in there, and other MAC teams have done as well or actually better. We shouldn't be looking down too much 20 years later on good MAC teams. Certainly not call it nothing.
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Toledo
Feb 8, 2022 16:43:47 GMT -6
Post by 00hmh on Feb 8, 2022 16:43:47 GMT -6
It would thrill any AD in any mid major conference with FSB FB. Everyone in the conference has the same football requirements. How is that relevant ? It's relevant because in a conference where BB was the flagship sport, an AD might well devote more time money to it, you surely would be less happy unless you close the deal and win the conference tourney, or even move up to a better BB conference. Neither outcome is as critical for a MAC team.
When you are supporting FB, in a FB oriented conference, you use resources there, not on BB, and you are quite happy with consistent winning teams who have a chance every year.
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Post by rgmillikan on Feb 8, 2022 17:06:56 GMT -6
Id say Toledo from a rankings standpoint is somewhat comparable to Sallee's lady Cards teams in terms of usually in the top 110-115 in country but no ncaa auto bids to show for it. Good mid major programs but not top of the line MAC teams unlike say Buffalo under Nate Oats.
If bsu men's basketball mirrored toledo id be disappointed about the 0 ncaa appearances I'd absolutely take kowalchyk era over the Whitford era. Whitfords best year is probably on par with Tod's 5th best.
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Post by 00hmh on Feb 8, 2022 17:10:40 GMT -6
You missed that Ball State has more tournament wins than any MAC School, though tied with Ohio at Seven. Lately not so good, historically one of the best teams. Also, 37 tournament wins, only eclipsed by Ohio and Miami with 38. The Cards were also the first sweet sixteen team in MAC history. We should be proud of that history!
3 wins in the NCAA, 3 NIT wins. 1 NAIA win. A lot of MAC tourney wins. Back in the glory years. It's good!
OTOH, while we are 3-7 in 10 total NCAA games in our history, both Miami and Ohio U have each seen over 20 NCAA games. Kent has a good number of games.
I am not denigrating our good years, but don't think we can be so haughty as to dismiss good MAC teams and say they are nothing.
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Post by bsu0 on Feb 8, 2022 19:15:10 GMT -6
After reading how good we are I need you to remember that none of this had to do with our present coaching staff..Fire them all and start over.. Light this candle
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Post by calpoly on Feb 9, 2022 11:18:51 GMT -6
Time for me to eat some crow, for 1 game at least. Nice win by the Cards! I'm with you on eating crow; however, almost every season Whitford has one tease game. A game where his team will beat someone they aren't suppose to beat and it's often one of the Toledo games. I hope it's not the case this year. That they will actually play again like this several more times in February and March. Just not counting on it. The key, other than shooting 48% from 3-point, was only 7 turnovers. When was the last time we had single digit turnovers? I don't think it's happened this season. A big part of that was not playing the 2 Big's, Jihad and Pearson. Those two would have produced another 4 to 6 TO's if they had played. The rotation change everyone has alluded to. Whitford got away with not playing them because Toledo is so small up front, especially after Shumate got into foul trouble. Against a bigger team, I don't think only playing Thomas and Sparks will work. Sellers if by far the team's best defender. He's going to get increased minutes as Whitford puts him on the opposing team's best guard or wing. Looks like it was a tease. I'll regurgitate my crow |
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Toledo
Feb 9, 2022 16:20:57 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by thebsukid on Feb 9, 2022 16:20:57 GMT -6
Toledo spanked a good Ohio team last night
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Toledo
Feb 13, 2022 12:15:31 GMT -6
Post by purplecats on Feb 13, 2022 12:15:31 GMT -6
So, you don't think it's a reasonable goal to make the NCAA or NIT tournament on a more frequent basis than zero times in the last 20 years? From 1981 to 2002 (a span of 22 years), that goal was attained 50% of the time. Even just looking at the period prior to the "glory" period you reference when the team was not a world-beater, the Cards made the NCAA tournament 25% of the time (during the '81-'88 time period). Is 25% of the time reasonable? 10%? Or are we content with 0% of the time for the last two decades and placing a consistent top third in the regular-season standings (with a "good chance to go to the NCAA" that never. ever materializes)? For a like-to-like comparison, let's look at Kent in the 2000's. Similar situation... MAC (one bid conference), etc. NCAA Tournament Elite Eight: 2002 NCAA Tournament Sweet Sixteen: 2002 NCAA Tournament Round of 32: 2001, 2002 NCAA Tournament Appearances: 1999, 2001, 2002, 2006, 2008, 2017 NIT Second Round Appearances: 2010 NIT Quarterfinal Appearances: 2000, 2011 NIT Tournament Appearances: 2000, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2010, 2011 Conference tournament champions: 1999, 2001, 2002, 2006, 2008, 2017 Conference regular season champions: 2002, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2015 Why is Kent (or Ohio... or Buffalo... or Akron) this successful, yet BSU is saddled with a constant "good chance to go to the NCAA" that doesn't actually exist? Should BSU not aspire to be this consistent (or even half this consistent... or a quarter this consistent)? This is what good mid-major performance looks like. EDIT: Buffalo (in the 2000's): NCAA Tournament Round of 32: 2018, 2019 NCAA Tournament Appearances: 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019 NIT Tournament Appearances: 2005, 2021 Conference tournament champions: 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019 Conference regular season champions: 2009, 2015, 2018, 2019 Akron (in the 2000's): NCAA Tournament Appearances: 2009, 2011, 2013 NIT Tournament Appearances: 2006, 2008, 2012, 2016, 2017 Conference tournament champions: 2009, 2011, 2013 Conference regular season champions: 2012, 2013, 2016, 2017, 2020 Ohio (in the 2000's): NCAA Tournament Sweet Sixteen: 2012 NCAA Tournament Round of 32: 2010, 2012, 2021 NCAA Tournament Appearances: 2005, 2010, 2012, 2021 NIT Tournament Appearances: 2013 Conference tournament champions: 2005, 2010, 2012, 2021 Conference regular season champions: 2013 That's a lot to sort out but looking back it all comes to a coach coming in and changing culture/setting a standard. Gary Waters set the tone at Kent and subsequent coaches carried it forward parlaying jobs as each coach Heath, Christian, Ford, etc came along as those were careful to follow the lead of the Coach before them. Groce replaced Tim O Shea at Ohio and started a culture that Saul Philips did not carry on but Boals seems to have recaptured Akron Dambrot replaced Hipsher and changed the record and culture of the Program. Remains to be seen if Groce can keep it going but they are still in the top Buffalo suffered through and stayed with Witherspoon for years after he replaced Cohane. Once they got someone who changed how they did things they have established their identity and been moving forward since. The real answer from the info you supplied is leadership and vision then getting players in to buy into the culture and in each case putting the program in place to continue. Miami basketball alumni are really tight but they have no power to effect change. Kent Coaching alums and players connected have a tight group that is still pushing Kent culture. Akron and Ohio keep their culture and basketball alumni involved within the current locker room. I have no real answer to your question, only observations from afar. |
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Post by reevo on Feb 13, 2022 15:05:39 GMT -6
So, you don't think it's a reasonable goal to make the NCAA or NIT tournament on a more frequent basis than zero times in the last 20 years? From 1981 to 2002 (a span of 22 years), that goal was attained 50% of the time. Even just looking at the period prior to the "glory" period you reference when the team was not a world-beater, the Cards made the NCAA tournament 25% of the time (during the '81-'88 time period). Is 25% of the time reasonable? 10%? Or are we content with 0% of the time for the last two decades and placing a consistent top third in the regular-season standings (with a "good chance to go to the NCAA" that never. ever materializes)? For a like-to-like comparison, let's look at Kent in the 2000's. Similar situation... MAC (one bid conference), etc. NCAA Tournament Elite Eight: 2002 NCAA Tournament Sweet Sixteen: 2002 NCAA Tournament Round of 32: 2001, 2002 NCAA Tournament Appearances: 1999, 2001, 2002, 2006, 2008, 2017 NIT Second Round Appearances: 2010 NIT Quarterfinal Appearances: 2000, 2011 NIT Tournament Appearances: 2000, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2010, 2011 Conference tournament champions: 1999, 2001, 2002, 2006, 2008, 2017 Conference regular season champions: 2002, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2015 Why is Kent (or Ohio... or Buffalo... or Akron) this successful, yet BSU is saddled with a constant "good chance to go to the NCAA" that doesn't actually exist? Should BSU not aspire to be this consistent (or even half this consistent... or a quarter this consistent)? This is what good mid-major performance looks like. EDIT: Buffalo (in the 2000's): NCAA Tournament Round of 32: 2018, 2019 NCAA Tournament Appearances: 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019 NIT Tournament Appearances: 2005, 2021 Conference tournament champions: 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019 Conference regular season champions: 2009, 2015, 2018, 2019 Akron (in the 2000's): NCAA Tournament Appearances: 2009, 2011, 2013 NIT Tournament Appearances: 2006, 2008, 2012, 2016, 2017 Conference tournament champions: 2009, 2011, 2013 Conference regular season champions: 2012, 2013, 2016, 2017, 2020 Ohio (in the 2000's): NCAA Tournament Sweet Sixteen: 2012 NCAA Tournament Round of 32: 2010, 2012, 2021 NCAA Tournament Appearances: 2005, 2010, 2012, 2021 NIT Tournament Appearances: 2013 Conference tournament champions: 2005, 2010, 2012, 2021 Conference regular season champions: 2013 That's a lot to sort out but looking back it all comes to a coach coming in and changing culture/setting a standard. Gary Waters set the tone at Kent and subsequent coaches carried it forward parlaying jobs as each coach Heath, Christian, Ford, etc came along as those were careful to follow the lead of the Coach before them. Groce replaced Tim O Shea at Ohio and started a culture that Saul Philips did not carry on but Boals seems to have recaptured Akron Dambrot replaced Hipsher and changed the record and culture of the Program. Remains to be seen if Groce can keep it going but they are still in the top Buffalo suffered through and stayed with Witherspoon for years after he replaced Cohane. Once they got someone who changed how they did things they have established their identity and been moving forward since. The real answer from the info you supplied is leadership and vision then getting players in to buy into the culture and in each case putting the program in place to continue. Miami basketball alumni are really tight but they have no power to effect change. Kent Coaching alums and players connected have a tight group that is still pushing Kent culture. Akron and Ohio keep their culture and basketball alumni involved within the current locker room. I have no real answer to your question, only observations from afar. Yes and Yes! It takes competent leadership from the top and a Board of trustees buying in. Our University is currently okay with mediocrity. I don’t buy the bs that we are not capable of being a top 100 program. We have everything you need from facilities to recruiting grounds. What we are missing is a wide encompassing philosophy that meshes with the community. Majerus and Hunsaker got it. The culture should be built around toughness, physicality and an arrogance of working class blue collar people who make Muncie their home. We may never attract top 100 players but you can surely find kids who will buy into something different than the status quo of how basketball is played in most places today. You want to win consistently at our level, you better be different than everybody else. |
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Toledo
Feb 13, 2022 15:27:07 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by 00hmh on Feb 13, 2022 15:27:07 GMT -6
I fear that blue collar attitude is not part of player or coach mentality any more.
And rules don't help. Take a charge? Hard screen? Hit the boards? All high risk of fouling.
Plus the premium on the 3 ball at all levels.
That blue collar Muncie fan base and rabid HS fan may not be there either.
I am a pessimist about that day we once saw being revived.
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Toledo
Feb 13, 2022 17:09:08 GMT -6
Post by CallingBS on Feb 13, 2022 17:09:08 GMT -6
That's a lot to sort out but looking back it all comes to a coach coming in and changing culture/setting a standard. Gary Waters set the tone at Kent and subsequent coaches carried it forward parlaying jobs as each coach Heath, Christian, Ford, etc came along as those were careful to follow the lead of the Coach before them. Groce replaced Tim O Shea at Ohio and started a culture that Saul Philips did not carry on but Boals seems to have recaptured Akron Dambrot replaced Hipsher and changed the record and culture of the Program. Remains to be seen if Groce can keep it going but they are still in the top Buffalo suffered through and stayed with Witherspoon for years after he replaced Cohane. Once they got someone who changed how they did things they have established their identity and been moving forward since. The real answer from the info you supplied is leadership and vision then getting players in to buy into the culture and in each case putting the program in place to continue. Miami basketball alumni are really tight but they have no power to effect change. Kent Coaching alums and players connected have a tight group that is still pushing Kent culture. Akron and Ohio keep their culture and basketball alumni involved within the current locker room. I have no real answer to your question, only observations from afar. Yes and Yes! It takes competent leadership from the top and a Board of trustees buying in. Our University is currently okay with mediocrity. I don’t buy the bs that we are not capable of being a top 100 program. We have everything you need from facilities to recruiting grounds. What we are missing is a wide encompassing philosophy that meshes with the community. Majerus and Hunsaker got it. The culture should be built around toughness, physicality and an arrogance of working class blue collar people who make Muncie their home. We may never attract top 100 players but you can surely find kids who will buy into something different than the status quo of how basketball is played in most places today. You want to win consistently at our level, you better be different than everybody else. 100% |
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Toledo
Feb 13, 2022 17:36:17 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by 00hmh on Feb 13, 2022 17:36:17 GMT -6
Yes and Yes! It takes competent leadership from the top and a Board of trustees buying in. Our University is currently okay with mediocrity. I don’t buy the bs that we are not capable of being a top 100 program. We have everything... 100% It's all about how much priority athletics has. The University has lots of problems. How much effort do you spend? Easy to pass the buck to the AD, but not even make BB a priority in athletics. |
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Post by purplecats on Feb 13, 2022 22:03:38 GMT -6
I fear that blue collar attitude is not part of player or coach mentality any more. And rules don't help. Take a charge? Hard screen? Hit the boards? All high risk of fouling. Plus the premium on the 3 ball at all levels. That blue collar Muncie fan base and rabid HS fan may not be there either. I am a pessimist about that day we once saw being revived. I would be more of a pessimist if I did not see a Blue Collar kid reviving the love for a Rust Belt city and a down to earth work ethic after growing up in a place eulogized in Hillbilly Elegy. |
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Toledo
Feb 13, 2022 23:01:57 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by 00hmh on Feb 13, 2022 23:01:57 GMT -6
Sounds like a made for TV movie.
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