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Post by rmcalhoun on Apr 15, 2016 21:36:24 GMT -6
I'm surprised at how many people think this hurts our depth. If someone doesn't help the team in any way I don't consider it depth. Just because he has a "PG" next to his name on the roster doesn't mean he is value added. I already knew he would play nearly as much as last season but now that he is gone I am very pleased to know that he won't touch the court. A 5th year guard probably won't be much value added either but in my opinion it will be more than smith and could bridge the gap to a 2017 point guard.
Because at this point we need bodies as of right now if we had two injuries we would playing walk ons or being further forced to play more people out of position
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Post by 00hmh on Apr 15, 2016 21:44:01 GMT -6
+1
5 guards is not a bad idea. Adding a 4th who can play at least 10 minutes without hurting you badly is important. If all are combo guards that might be OK. Smith would have provided depth. Sellers or somebody else might be able to play against bigger guards, but certainly is not a primary ball handler, and you need a starter and a reserve at that position every game. An injury would cripple us with only one reserve.
The guard handling the ball against pressure can't play 35 or 40 minutes. We saw Davis forced into that role, playing too many minutes and wearing down last year and kept losing games in the last few minutes as a result.
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Post by realitycheck on Apr 16, 2016 9:24:16 GMT -6
Smith, Davis & Gill are busts for Whitford. I won't be sorry to see Smith go. Nothing personal but he was nothing more than a body. The Star Press called him a strong defender. I never saw much of that. He couldn't keep quicker guards in front of him. Kiapway was/is a better defender.
From a depth perspective, I would much rather have Frances and Tyler rotate at the two and Persons and at the one.
IMHO, our recruiting under JW has been above average with high school players and below average with transfers. Weber can at least shoot but he's below average in rebounding, defense, ability to create and toughness. Smith & Davis inconsistent and limited skills and Gill just a whiff. Wells was meh. Need to do MUCH better to take another step up as a program, plus create frontline depth. Still waiting on the "it" guy.
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Post by cardfan on Apr 16, 2016 9:46:13 GMT -6
All season the SP writer had a much higher opinion of Smith than did anyone else. Not real sure what the kid sees out there. (I still hold it against him for calling the pitchers mound "the circle" while covering Bsu BASEBALL for the DN.).
RC you are spot on regarding Whits recruiting of transfers. Let's hope Persons isn't a fail too! I have the feeling we're going to take yet another underwhelming 5 year transfer....
The question becomes, is JW capable of closing the deal on an "it" guy?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2016 9:53:28 GMT -6
Smith, Davis & Gill are busts for Whitford. I won't be sorry to see Smith go. Nothing personal but he was nothing more than a body. The Star Press called him a strong defender. I never saw much of that. He couldn't keep quicker guards in front of him. Kiapway was/is a better defender.
From a depth perspective, I would much rather have Frances and Tyler rotate at the two and Persons and at the one.
IMHO, our recruiting under JW has been above average with high school players and below average with transfers. Weber can at least shoot but he's below average in rebounding, defense, ability to create and toughness. Smith & Davis inconsistent and limited skills and Gill just a whiff. Wells was meh. Need to do MUCH better to take another step up as a program, plus create frontline depth. Still waiting on the "it" guy. Tyler shot 35 % from three, he isn't a good option at the two position.
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Post by 00hmh on Apr 16, 2016 10:12:43 GMT -6
Smith, Davis & Gill are busts for Whitford. I won't be sorry to see Smith go. Nothing personal but he was nothing more than a body. The Star Press called him a strong defender. I never saw much of that. He couldn't keep quicker guards in front of him. Kiapway was/is a better defender.
From a depth perspective, I would much rather have Frances and Tyler rotate at the two and Persons and at the one.
IMHO, our recruiting under JW has been above average with high school players and below average with transfers. Weber can at least shoot but he's below average in rebounding, defense, ability to create and toughness. Smith & Davis inconsistent and limited skills and Gill just a whiff. Wells was meh. Need to do MUCH better to take another step up as a program, plus create frontline depth. Still waiting on the "it" guy. Agree for the most part. Weber overall a starter quality transfer. Can't gripe too much about that, Persons same thing. Need front line depth. We make at least a small step up next year if we get some depth up front, add a decent reserve guard. Either we get the "it" guy or have 5 guys starting and 2 or 3 more off the bench all pretty good, and without a weak link anywhere, to make a bigger step forward. Teague is a wild card. Moses could become very good, appears to be at the least a good starter.
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Post by 00hmh on Apr 16, 2016 10:16:22 GMT -6
Tyler shot 35 % from three, he isn't a good option at the two position. He had two seasons last year. First half he was not good. In the second half, he showed he could be a good option, our best 2 when he was on. He and Francis both seem to disappear at times, be very hot at others.
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Post by 00hmh on Apr 16, 2016 10:28:12 GMT -6
All season the SP writer had a much higher opinion of Smith than did anyone else. Not real sure what the kid sees out there. (I still hold it against him for calling the pitchers mound "the circle" while covering Bsu BASEBALL for the DN.). RC you are spot on regarding Whits recruiting of transfers. Let's hope Persons isn't a fail too! I have the feeling we're going to take yet another underwhelming 5 year transfer.... Agree, but I am OK with an underwhelming transfer who can play up front, and, now, need to add a decent guard. With 4 scholarships I would have no gripe with 5th year guys who are not just bodies on the bench like Gill, because we can use the scholarships right away. Beyond that, with another open scholarship, I am OK with a gamble on a player who can develop in this class. We need to fill 2 positions out of necessity for depth, if we can get a high quality signing at this point, plus plug the holes on the bench we should celebrate. Would make sure I have at least 3 scholarships to fill next year, might hold one from all the open lines we have now to make room for 4 in that class. That class extremely important for the future, prevent the dreaded plateau.
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Post by thebsukid on Apr 16, 2016 18:35:20 GMT -6
Well said reds37...
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Post by ctshowtyme on Apr 17, 2016 8:42:55 GMT -6
I think everyone here agrees that Smith didn't figure in the rotation next season, barring an injury or suspension to a rotation guard. Smith and Whitford both knew it, and so he left. And I think most (or all) of us think the MAC wasn't the right level for Smith, and was ultimately a recruiting miss by Whitford.
If you are of the opinion that Smith was really no better than your average walk-on guard, then ok, and it's not a big loss. Or if you have inside knowledge that one or two pretty good guards are on the way, then it's not a big loss. And it frees up a scholarship. (I don't have any inside knowledge.) But if you think Smith is better than your average walk-on guard (albeit not on a MAC level) and say Kiapway tweaks a knee and is out for three weeks, then guard depth is a real concern, unless we land a guard or two this spring/summer.
If you fall in the latter category. then it's a bit nerve wracking because we've played walk-on guards important minutes several times in the last 15 years, and may have to again next year given the current roster. But BSU is in a better spot now, and hopefully Whitford can take advantage of that in spring recruiting.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 9:17:45 GMT -6
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Post by cardfan on Apr 17, 2016 9:29:15 GMT -6
We needed him purely for depth, and with him being coached, probably for the first time, I would have assumed 'some' improvement. I'm with Halftime, he would have seen the floor. Him leaving is good Only if he gets back filled with a point guard who can be relied on if needed. A walkon isn't really the way you want to go in D1/MAC. smith wasn't real good but you could put him out there 10 min a game. I don't want kiapway consumed by having to run the point. He was adequate, but shooting the ball is his strength and what he should be doing.
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Post by ctshowtyme on Apr 17, 2016 9:31:24 GMT -6
Perhaps that is true Halftime. An over-statement on my part to assume what others think may happen.
I personally don't think he was going to figure in the regular rotation. I think Persons, Tyler, and Kiapway were going to rotate at guard with Sellers playing a bit of 2 guard. I think Persons was going to replace Smith in the rotation, with Smith relegated out, barring emergency. That Whitford would stick with a three guard rotation plus Sellers (and perhaps a newcomer if good enough). But just my opinion..
...Totally agree with Cardfan that Kiapway is better served at the 2. Perhaps getting Smith those 10 minutes a game could have made that happen.
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Post by 00hmh on Apr 17, 2016 10:08:58 GMT -6
Also - forcing Kiapway into the backup point guard role is certainly not ideal. I would rather have Francis concentrating on shooting threes until his arm falls off. But I'm hoping that Persons backed up by Kiapway is a million times better than Kiapway backed up by Smith. Until he develops some game with the ball in his hand and moving he is a secondary scoring threat or will be better scoring as a 2G. Yes. But he is also effective as a defender. That and he has to be guarded when he has the ball outside. The threat to shoot outside as he handles the ball helps our offense work in a lot of ways. Persons generates much more with the ball in his hand and is a threat to get into the lane, so he can play that way with either Tyler or Kiapway off the ball. I hope he gets a chance to play off the ball some against smaller guards, he could be a load cutting to the basket where there would not be as much help. As much of an athlete as Tyler is I sure would like to see him improve his judgement and as a ball handler, then he could handle the ball sometimes with either of the other 2 off the ball. He might potentially be able to play as a triple threat combo guard, but he has not shown much in the way of ability to pass yet, an area where he has to improve to reach his potential. Whatever the combination of the 3 guards we should have 2 guards on the floor who can score and our play by the guy who triggers the offense will be better this year because of that. Any time Smith was on the floor the defense could play off him and that hurt us, and he had no particular ability to drive to the basket. On a few occasions he stepped up and shot the ball but it was usually better to try to get it to somebody else even if it was harder to do and they were more closely guarded. He had reasonable discipline and did not force anything, we'll miss him as a bench player. As a JUCO he looked better in the run and gun game, and until we get some rebounding help, we aren't able to get guys out on the break. His maligned defense was a little better than most give him credit for, I hope we get a really good defender for bench duty. At times we need to either put more pressure on a team or shut down a hot hand. Francis is a good defender but he can't play 40 minutes.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 10:24:53 GMT -6
"The threat to shoot outside as he handles the ball helps our offense work in a lot of ways"
No, he is far harder to defend if he is running through screens than handling the ball. There is zero upside to playing him at point.
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