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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 10:41:17 GMT -6
Yes. And ticket and participation fees. We don't make very much by extra ticket revenue, not much profit, if any. The Student fees are the same whether we bowl or not, but the revenue for us from MAC TV and bowl games is probably more profit if we don't go at all. That still makes it a farce. Lose money all year on football to lose a little more. If we go and win, that's good publicity, maybe just a good game even a loss is considered good, helps with recruiting for example. Still it is expensive in terms of money and student time, and you gotta wonder if it is worth it. On principle the problem is this is more an more just business not sports, not serving our fans and students very much, just paying bills which may just be bills that come from a whole season where we work hard, overpay in many cases to be D1, and the "reward" comes down to be the "opportunity" to serve ESPN programming needs. ?? Many of these bowls are owned by ESPN, and they have ticket sale requirements from the participating schools, along with other costs. Not sure what student fees have to do with bowl games. We get publicity and advertising.
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Post by williamtsherman on Dec 3, 2015 15:41:28 GMT -6
"Not sure what student fees have to do with bowl games."
When the ticket sales requirements are not met through actual demand, as they often aren't, where do you think the money comes from?
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Post by 00hmh on Dec 3, 2015 15:43:58 GMT -6
Many of these bowls are owned by ESPN, and they have ticket sale requirements from the participating schools, along with other costs. Not sure what student fees have to do with bowl games. We get publicity and advertising. I wasn't clear, the main revenue source we have even with TV money included is still student fees. The economics of the bowl games is as you correctly say, more about expenses than relatively small offsetting revenues. I did not mean to suggest anything except that NOT going to a bowl is damned near the same in money terms as going... I am not sure how much the pub and advertising is worth when nobody really wants to watch the game that much. Sometimes people cite the cost of buying equivalent advertising, but you have to wonder whether we are reaching people we even want to when you value it that way. Most ads sold at that "going price" for other products might be of value whoever watches, even where the bored channel surfer watches the game for a while. The people we want to reach are prospective high school students and those alums and others who don't know our story and those have to also actually watch the long part in the half time show with the BSU promo. How many prospective students watch these games? How many people watch who we need to have see our story? Most people watching in that category are connected to BSU already, get other material other ways. Unless we think we'll impress the fans from our opponent...So that pricing thing applies to a different audience, and I'm not sure we get the bang for the buck. Mostly, we'd never pay the "going price" for the time we actually get. It's of some value, but really hard to put a dollar value on it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 19:27:49 GMT -6
"Not sure what student fees have to do with bowl games." When the ticket sales requirements are not met through actual demand, as they often aren't, where do you think the money comes from? Show us the line item in the AD annual report, or even the BSU annual report that earmarks Student Fees for "bowl participation overages". The Student Fees are already allocated to other uses.
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Post by 00hmh on Dec 4, 2015 7:40:20 GMT -6
Show us the line item in the AD annual report, or even the BSU annual report that earmarks Student Fees for "bowl participation overages". The Student Fees are already allocated to other uses. The annual report is a masterpiece of accounting when it comes to sports finance. There is no breakdown of accounting expenses such as the one you want to look for, you won't find in many cases very much at all about individual expense items. The best breakdown of sports budgets is never found in annual reports anyway, but in the reporting for purposes of civil rights compliance. Sources for university sports spending rarely find any significant detail in annual reports. Besides, even if were correct on the accounting journal entries, the big picture is that student fees are the main source of so called "revenue" for sports. The "balanced budget" is a juggling act where many expenses don't count and a deficit doesn't exist since you just allocate more student fees for the purpose of balancing it. When surplus or deficit arises over a proposed budget due to unusual expense or unexpected revenue it is carried over, but not detailed where the source of the surplus or deficit really comes from, and in the case of "surplus," money from student fees is not returned! With all that being just accounting magic routine in any enterprise, I suppose, that is not the issue. The issue is that we run a losing operation by any real economic measure. Student fees cover the loss. For me that is just fine that college sports is subsidized. Sports are a good thing, and can add a lot to the student life on campus, well it did at one time add more when students went to games, that is a sad development. It does help many athletes and could be critical in establishing a national identity and brand. But, to possibly waste the budget on bowl games that are meaningless is another thing. See this article: Bowl games as scams by committeesThe article talks about even the big money bowls representing a bad deal for the Universities, "nonprofit" committees that lavish large salaries and extravagant perks on administrators whose job is to organize a single game every year. Our level bowl games are on a smaller scale but represent the same set of incentives and pitfalls. So, unless the bowl team makes a profit, which is fairly rare, the deficit suffered is paid out of the budget somewhere. And the revenue side of that budget is largely student fees. If we didn't have that expense, we'd be able to spend the student fees on other deserving sports activity.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2015 8:51:25 GMT -6
Show us the line item in the AD annual report, or even the BSU annual report that earmarks Student Fees for "bowl participation overages". The Student Fees are already allocated to other uses. The annual report is a masterpiece of accounting when it comes to sports finance. There is no breakdown of accounting expenses such as the one you want to look for, you won't find in many cases very much at all about individual expense items. The best breakdown of sports budgets is never found in annual reports anyway, but in the reporting for purposes of civil rights compliance. Sources for university sports spending rarely find any significant detail in annual reports. Besides, even if were correct on the accounting journal entries, the big picture is that student fees are the main source of so called "revenue" for sports. The "balanced budget" is a juggling act where many expenses don't count and a deficit doesn't exist since you just allocate more student fees for the purpose of balancing it. When surplus or deficit arises over a proposed budget due to unusual expense or unexpected revenue it is carried over, but not detailed where the source of the surplus or deficit really comes from, and in the case of "surplus," money from student fees is not returned! With all that being just accounting magic routine in any enterprise, I suppose, that is not the issue. The issue is that we run a losing operation by any real economic measure. Student fees cover the loss. For me that is just fine that college sports is subsidized. Sports are a good thing, and can add a lot to the student life on campus, well it did at one time add more when students went to games, that is a sad development. It does help many athletes and could be critical in establishing a national identity and brand. But, to possibly waste the budget on bowl games that are meaningless is another thing. See this article: Bowl games as scams by committeesThe article talks about even the big money bowls representing a bad deal for the Universities, "nonprofit" committees that lavish large salaries and extravagant perks on administrators whose job is to organize a single game every year. Our level bowl games are on a smaller scale but represent the same set of incentives and pitfalls. So, unless the bowl team makes a profit, which is fairly rare, the deficit suffered is paid out of the budget somewhere. And the revenue side of that budget is largely student fees. If we didn't have that expense, we'd be able to spend the student fees on other deserving sports activity. But to imply that bowl costs come out of Student Fees (which have already been earmarked) is also incorrect. That was why I replied as I did. We never know our bowl situation until December, long after Student Fees have been allocated.
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Post by 00hmh on Dec 4, 2015 10:22:07 GMT -6
You miss the point. If the bowl loses money, it eventually comes from somewhere. Real dollars have to be spent to pay plane fare and expenses. We have some reserves for such unexpected net expenses. The next budget is allocated and someday has to cover the loss.
That next budget is funded in large part from student fees. It is a shell game. Eventually the revenue has to be looked at and the revenue over time is in large part coming from those fees.
When I mentioned student fees it was only to make the point that "real" result is likely to be a net loss and paid for from somewhere and its not covered by the "real" income generated from the bowl. Where do you think the "extra revenue" comes from? Not the accounting transfers. You really think the extra expense is covered from additional "real" revenue?
The big issue is whether it is a good expense to incur. That is the reason the insignificant bowl games are questionable. It is unlikely to a net gain on the income statement. It has be counted somehow as additional "good will" from that advertising and feel good impact on fans, and measured somehow on the balance sheet. THAT becomes more dubious the more insignificant and unattractive the bowl game and the opponent is.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2015 20:54:05 GMT -6
Bowl announcements are out. The MAC gets 7 teams into bowl games.
9 of Ball State's 12 2015 season opponents made it to bowl games.
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Post by 00hmh on Dec 6, 2015 22:22:05 GMT -6
Definitely need to cut some bowls. It's no longer a true reward and In too many cases almost seem the opposite of reward. Bowls mean very little anymore. 40 bowls. 80 teams. One thing we didn't discuss much above is it that is one hell of lot of student athletes, thousands, spending extra weeks on football, who miss class time and Finals. On top of a very long season.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2015 7:55:41 GMT -6
Definitely need to cut some bowls. It's no longer a true reward and In too many cases almost seem the opposite of reward. Bowls mean very little anymore. 40 bowls. 80 teams. One thing we didn't discuss much above is it that is one hell of lot of student athletes, thousands, spending extra weeks on football, who miss class time and Finals. On top of a very long season. Ok. I'll play.... 32 D1 conferences, 347 teams (694 mens and women's). D1 basketball starts in October and doesn't end until March. That is six months of basketball, taking kids away from class time and finals. Football runs from August to end of December, a five month period. Only two teams are playing after January 2nd.
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Post by 00hmh on Dec 7, 2015 9:22:53 GMT -6
Ok. I'll play.... 32 D1 conferences, 347 teams (694 mens and women's). D1 basketball starts in October and doesn't end until March. That is six months of basketball, taking kids away from class time and finals. Football runs from August to end of December, a five month period. Only two teams are playing after January 2nd. No question there is academic conflict in both sports for the student athletes. The numbers tell me football is more costly in student time, especially in the critical school time at the end of the first semester. That 6 month season in Basketball is not really much longer. August through December plus Spring is also 6 months. When it comes to post season play the total impact is probably greater on academics in football, bad timing of all the extra time at the end of the semester. Basketball allows for light schedules to be devised for most teams in their Final Exam week. Players might miss one day for travel and game, and half the teams are at home then. Travel in basketball does involve more trips through the season, that is true. But, in post season Football, there is a longer time on the road for the extra game. The only thing that makes the bowl acceptable is that much of the time involved may be at the expense of going home on break. But, the bigger problem with football, especially post season is in the comparison is number of student athletes involved. Basketball with 700 schools, 15 players each team, maybe. 10000 players? Wow. But. Maybe 150 schools playing football at bowl eligible schools, closer to 100 players each. Actually it would be fair in measuring total impact through the season to include all the AA schools in football, and even smaller schools who play in D1 basketball, some might not have football, I suppose like Bradley. In any case, there is no comparison in total impact to may of the same schools. Looking at post season only, Football involves a larger percentage of a greater number of athletes participating even though from from a smaller number of schools. There are so many more players on every football team, although not all will travel, all will practice. The extra post season practice and travel time is basketball significantly less. 3/4 of the teams who participate are out in week 1 in March madness. That means maybe two weeks extra in the season in NCAA tournament time. The teams generally do not go on the road for as much of the week for that tournament game as for a bowl game. Survive week one, 3/4 gone, and week two eliminates another 3/4 of those that remain. Football all schools at least two weeks extra time. 80 schools involved in bowls. Say only 60 players travel for the bowl, that could be approaching 5000 students traveling and that would not include all the managers, the band, and so on, could be much more, multiple weeks of extra practice time for teams. In basketball, 694 teams might potentially be impacted by post season, but at most less than 200 of those teams are in the NCAA or other post season every year. There are only 13-15 student athletes who travel. Fewer other students, no marching band for example. That is very conservatively 1/2 the number of students impacted by post season. Still, your point is well taken, both sports involve a lot of student time. Looking at the financial side there is little comparison. Basketball post season almost always covers any extra expense, and even makes money for most teams. Net profit is much greater for far more schools. A few schools of course make megabucks on football over a season, most lose a lot. Even Power 5 conference schools can lose money on big bowl games. Arguably they gain enough good will in those high profile games to make it worthwhile. The point of most of the discussion we have had about bowl games is that the low level bowl games are far more questionable in terms of providing good will. Much less buzz for the early December bowls. A 64 seed in the NCAA tournament who loses a first round game to Duke probably gains more with a day in the news than the bowl team earns with by a week in Birmingham or Central Florida even with a night on national TV.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2015 11:53:47 GMT -6
We have been season ticket holders at Appalachian State for several years (kids graduated from App) and it will be interesting to see how they fare against MAC's Ohio University in their first bowl appearance (new to FBS and were prohibited from a bowl in 2015). Apps' only losses were to Clemson and Arkansas State
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Post by Bigfoot on Dec 7, 2015 14:40:27 GMT -6
We have been season ticket holders at Appalachian State for several years (kids graduated from App) and it will be interesting to see how they fare against MAC's Ohio University in their first bowl appearance (new to FBS and were prohibited from a bowl in 2015). Apps' only losses were to Clemson and Arkansas State I think it will be a good game and probably be one of contrasting offensive philosophy. I have been a fan of App St since they got my attention by beating Michigan in 2007 (I think that was the year). I also have heard a number of good things about the school from some of their alumni I know from my business travels. I would lean to ASU to be a slight favorite from what I have seen this season but regardless it should be a fun game to watch against two good programs!
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Post by bsu.edu/webmail on Dec 7, 2015 15:10:15 GMT -6
40 games with 80 teams is simply TOO MANY! There are a handful of 5-7 teams filling the bowls and a handful of games aren't even nationally televised. It is getting a little rediculous. Obvisously I wish this was the case in 2011 when there were only 35 games for 70 teams but there was 72 eligible teams...we all know how that worked out for ourselves and FIU..
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2015 15:22:34 GMT -6
40 games with 80 teams is simply TOO MANY! There are a handful of 5-7 teams filling the bowls and a handful of games aren't even nationally televised. It is getting a little rediculous. Obvisously I wish this was the case in 2011 when there were only 35 games for 70 teams but there was 72 eligible teams...we all know how that worked out for ourselves and FIU.. Follow the money. ESPN needs programming to broadcast. They are charging schools to play, rather than paying schools to play. Kind of messed up, but institutions look at the 3.5 hour exposure as worth it. We seem to be debating whether it is.
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