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Post by cardfan on Nov 13, 2019 9:56:07 GMT -6
We never said fleck can’t coach, we said he’s a douchewagon clown. That hasn’t changed. Yeah he can coach. Doesn’t mean he’s not a caricature.
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Post by williamtsherman on Nov 13, 2019 10:34:44 GMT -6
We never said fleck can’t coach, we said he’s a douchewagon clown. That hasn’t changed. Yeah he can coach. Doesn’t mean he’s not a caricature. It's a shame that the forum doesn't go back that far, because there would be some football forum member quotes about Fleck that would be absolutely hilarious to read now. I certainly can't remember the quotes verbatim, or who specifically made them, but I distinctly remember that, when Fleck was new at WMU, the consensus opinion on the football board was that he was a COMPLETE clown who could not be taken seriously in any way, shape or form, and it was assumed that we would quickly flame out, and it was clear that BSU football fans were very very glad they didn't have the embarrassment of Fleck as THEIR coach.
Of course, nobody is going to own up to those sentiments now...but I remember. Shame, I have no way to prove it, because that would be a blast. But I do, at least, have the amusement of BSU football fans trying to deny what happened.
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Post by JacksonStreetElite on Nov 13, 2019 10:45:28 GMT -6
We never said fleck can’t coach, we said he’s a douchewagon clown. That hasn’t changed. Yeah he can coach. Doesn’t mean he’s not a caricature. It's a shame that the forum doesn't go back that far, because there would be some football forum member quotes about Fleck that would be absolutely hilarious to read now. I certainly can't remember the quotes verbatim, or who specifically made them, but I distinctly remember that, when Fleck was new at WMU, the consensus opinion on the football board was that he was a COMPLETE clown who could not be taken seriously in any way, shape or form, and it was assumed that we would quickly flame out, and it was clear that BSU football fans were very very glad they didn't have the embarrassment of Fleck as THEIR coach.
Of course, nobody is going to own up to those sentiments now...but I remember. Shame, I have no way to prove it, because that would be a blast. But I do, at least, have the amusement of BSU football fans trying to deny what happened.
If you can't remember who said what, how are you so convinced that Fleck made me look stupid?
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Post by cardfan on Nov 13, 2019 10:45:59 GMT -6
Yeah when he went 1-11 in his first season that record plus the clownshow made him a pretty easy target. Cannot fault anyone for how he was viewed as a coach at that point. Obviously he’s gone in and proved himself to be a damned good coach.
So sherm you were able to tell he would be a great coach after that 1-11 season? Even Wmu fans had questions then. Every MAC schools fan base hated that guy. You can’t just say it was only us.
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Post by williamtsherman on Nov 13, 2019 10:51:57 GMT -6
It's a shame that the forum doesn't go back that far, because there would be some football forum member quotes about Fleck that would be absolutely hilarious to read now. I certainly can't remember the quotes verbatim, or who specifically made them, but I distinctly remember that, when Fleck was new at WMU, the consensus opinion on the football board was that he was a COMPLETE clown who could not be taken seriously in any way, shape or form, and it was assumed that we would quickly flame out, and it was clear that BSU football fans were very very glad they didn't have the embarrassment of Fleck as THEIR coach.
Of course, nobody is going to own up to those sentiments now...but I remember. Shame, I have no way to prove it, because that would be a blast. But I do, at least, have the amusement of BSU football fans trying to deny what happened.
If you can't remember who said what, how are you so convinced that Fleck made me look stupid?
Well, obviously because you are the one so intent on denying it all.
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Post by JacksonStreetElite on Nov 13, 2019 10:52:59 GMT -6
So sherm you were able to tell he would be a great coach after that 1-11 season?
This is the $1,000,000 question. If the criticism was that the BSU fans were too quick to judge I never would have called his insult unfair. The reasonable position after Fleck's first year would have been "One year isn't a large enough sample size, but based on the 1-11 record it doesn't look good."
Making fun of the people for judging too quickly = fair. Making fun of the people for not having the sagacity to envision Fleck's ultimate results = unfair.
What's especially confusing is that the few WMU fans who were hardcore standing by Fleck after his first year are probably the type of people Sherman hates the most on this board. So the only people who were actually right about Fleck probably weren't even that shrewd; it was probably just in their nature to be "supportive."
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Post by JacksonStreetElite on Nov 13, 2019 10:54:14 GMT -6
If you can't remember who said what, how are you so convinced that Fleck made me look stupid?
Well, obviously because you are the one so intent on denying it all.
Right. Well we can find quotes on this board, so go ahead and quote whatever statements of mine you're referring to.
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Post by williamtsherman on Nov 13, 2019 10:59:48 GMT -6
Yeah when he went 1-11 in his first season that record plus the clownshow made him a pretty easy target. Cannot fault anyone for how he was viewed as a coach at that point. Obviously he’s gone in and proved himself to be a damned good coach. So sherm you were able to tell he would be a great coach after that 1-11 season? Even Wmu fans had questions then. Every MAC schools fan base hated that guy. You can’t just say it was only us. You guys seem confused about what is funny. It's not funny that someone couldn't have predicted Fleck's eventual success. It's not funny that someone couldn't have foreseen Evansville beating KY in Rupp. These are just ordinary examples of the difficulty in predicting unlikely events.
It IS funny when a certain group ridicules and belittles a certain person, then that person proceeds to rip them a new one and ascends to a level far beyond them. If you want to draw comparisons, you're going to have to find another example of THAT.
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Post by williamtsherman on Nov 13, 2019 11:20:27 GMT -6
Well, obviously because you are the one so intent on denying it all.
Right. Well we can find quotes on this board, so go ahead and quote whatever statements of mine you're referring to.
Oddly, I found the following quote from you in the Chug, which admits to exactly what I am claiming. so, I'm not sure what this continued discussion is about.
"After his first year I thought PJ Fleck was a incompetent moron. Now I just think he's a moron."
The whole football board thought this way and expressed it in very snarky terms. Possibly I would have thought the same, and expressed it in the same way, if I gave a rat's ass about MAC football coaches. But it happens that I don't and didn't.
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Post by JacksonStreetElite on Nov 13, 2019 11:30:06 GMT -6
Right. Well we can find quotes on this board, so go ahead and quote whatever statements of mine you're referring to.
Oddly, I found the following quote from you in the Chug, which admits to exactly what I am claiming. so, I'm not sure what this continued discussion is about.
"After his first year I thought PJ Fleck was a incompetent moron. Now I just think he's a moron."
The whole football board thought this way and expressed it in very snarky terms. Possibly I would have thought the same, and expressed it in the same way, if I gave a rat's ass about MAC football coaches. But it happens that I don't and didn't.
Your task was to find a denial. That is not a denial.
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Post by Hoopsmith on Nov 13, 2019 11:30:24 GMT -6
Let's recap, shall we, for the people in the back who came in late: 1. PJ Fleck, who most BSU diehards thought to be complete fool and with varying opinions of his coaching ability, turns MINNESOTA football around. 2. BSU gets its doors blown off in the first half, plays out its ass in second half to make an interesting game of things; rinse, repeat, another night, another "what might have been." 3. The very same EVANSVILLE team, in its very next game, shocks top-ranked Kentucky on the road. 4. Thread about Fleck from the FOOTBALL board, morphs with previous game thread on BASKETBALL board. Board meltdown has been achieved, two games into the season, from two events completely unrelated to BSU. It's like crowd psychology, or a civics lesson from a city council meeting in a familiar place, to add another degree of insanity: www.thestarpress.com/story/news/local/2019/11/13/decorum-fails-november-city-council-meeting-tensions-remain-high/2562209001/
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Post by williamtsherman on Nov 13, 2019 12:00:12 GMT -6
Let's recap, shall we, for the people in the back who came in late: 1. PJ Fleck, who most BSU diehards thought to be complete fool and with varying opinions of his coaching ability, turns MINNESOTA football around. 2. BSU gets its doors blown off in the first half, plays out its ass in second half to make an interesting game of things; rinse, repeat, another night, another "what might have been." 3. The very same EVANSVILLE team, in its very next game, shocks top-ranked Kentucky on the road. 4. Thread about Fleck from the FOOTBALL board, morphs with previous game thread on BASKETBALL board. Board meltdown has been achieved, two games into the season, from two events completely unrelated to BSU. It's like crowd psychology, or a civics lesson from a city council meeting in a familiar place, to add another degree of insanity: www.thestarpress.com/story/news/local/2019/11/13/decorum-fails-november-city-council-meeting-tensions-remain-high/2562209001/Comparing us to the Muncie City Council is completely out of bounds and uncalled for. That's on the same level as threats of violence, dropping N-bombs, or wishing ill on children.
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Post by williamtsherman on Nov 13, 2019 12:15:02 GMT -6
So sherm you were able to tell he would be a great coach after that 1-11 season?
This is the $1,000,000 question. If the criticism was that the BSU fans were too quick to judge I never would have called his insult unfair. The reasonable position after Fleck's first year would have been "One year isn't a large enough sample size, but based on the 1-11 record it doesn't look good."
Making fun of the people for judging too quickly = fair. Making fun of the people for not having the sagacity to envision Fleck's ultimate results = unfair.
What's especially confusing is that the few WMU fans who were hardcore standing by Fleck after his first year are probably the type of people Sherman hates the most on this board. So the only people who were actually right about Fleck probably weren't even that shrewd; it was probably just in their nature to be "supportive."
That's completely wrong for two reasons 1) I have never given up on a coach in their first year and 2) in that first year, the key consideration is recruiting, rather than results, and apparently Fleck started recruiting well right away....as recruiters always do. I would be positively giddy if our new basketball coach, during the basketball equivalent of 1-11, was killing it on the recruiting trail.
Also, you can't seem to understand that I'm not ridiculing for failure to predict Fleck's success...I'm ridiculing for the ridiculing. Your denials have come in the form of asserting that there was nothing funny about the football board because I, myself, wouldn't have foreseen Fleck's success either. Which is a moot point. As I'm trying to explain, that's not what is funny about the situation.
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Post by Hoopsmith on Nov 13, 2019 12:29:01 GMT -6
Let's recap, shall we, for the people in the back who came in late: 1. PJ Fleck, who most BSU diehards thought to be complete fool and with varying opinions of his coaching ability, turns MINNESOTA football around. 2. BSU gets its doors blown off in the first half, plays out its ass in second half to make an interesting game of things; rinse, repeat, another night, another "what might have been." 3. The very same EVANSVILLE team, in its very next game, shocks top-ranked Kentucky on the road. 4. Thread about Fleck from the FOOTBALL board, morphs with previous game thread on BASKETBALL board. Board meltdown has been achieved, two games into the season, from two events completely unrelated to BSU. It's like crowd psychology, or a civics lesson from a city council meeting in a familiar place, to add another degree of insanity: www.thestarpress.com/story/news/local/2019/11/13/decorum-fails-november-city-council-meeting-tensions-remain-high/2562209001/Comparing us to the Muncie City Council is completely out of bounds and uncalled for. That's on the same level as threats of violence, dropping N-bombs, or wishing ill on children. Maybe, and I almost didn't post the link. But it just seemed to add another layer of absurdity to our usual sh*t cake. (emphasis mine because my browser doesn't feel like posting quotes today )
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Post by JacksonStreetElite on Nov 13, 2019 12:32:34 GMT -6
This is the $1,000,000 question. If the criticism was that the BSU fans were too quick to judge I never would have called his insult unfair. The reasonable position after Fleck's first year would have been "One year isn't a large enough sample size, but based on the 1-11 record it doesn't look good."
Making fun of the people for judging too quickly = fair. Making fun of the people for not having the sagacity to envision Fleck's ultimate results = unfair.
What's especially confusing is that the few WMU fans who were hardcore standing by Fleck after his first year are probably the type of people Sherman hates the most on this board. So the only people who were actually right about Fleck probably weren't even that shrewd; it was probably just in their nature to be "supportive."
That's completely wrong for two reasons 1) I have never given up on a coach in their first year and 2) in that first year, the key consideration is recruiting, rather than results, and apparently Fleck started recruiting well right away....as recruiters always do. I would be positively giddy if our new basketball coach, during the basketball equivalent of 1-11, was killing it on the recruiting trail.
Also, you can't seem to understand that I'm not ridiculing for failure to predict Fleck's success...I'm ridiculing for the ridiculing. Your denials have come in the form of asserting that there was nothing funny about the football board because I, myself, wouldn't have foreseen Fleck's success either. Which is a moot point. As I'm trying to explain, that's not what is funny about the situation.
I'm not sure how your two reasons prove any of my statements wrong. I'll entertain a clarification from you.
"I'm not ridiculing for failure to predict Fleck's success...I'm ridiculing for the ridiculing." is a distinction without a difference. You'd have no point to make if Fleck had been ridiculed and then failed himself into obscurity. The only reason the disdain for Fleck is now a source of enjoyment to you is because Fleck appears to ultimately be a good coach. BSU fans ridiculed Fleck's coaching and his personality and then were proven wrong about the coaching by his success. If BSU fans had ridiculed Fleck's coaching and been proven right by his ultimate failure you wouldn't keep bringing it up. And those willing to continue the conversation stand by the ridicule of his personality. He's both a douchebag and a good coach.
I haven't said there's nothing funny about the football board because you wouldn't have seen the success either. I'm saying your insulting the board's inability to predict Fleck's success isn't fair because you also would not have predicted it. You can 00-change my words all you want, but your initial criticism was and remains unfair.
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