|
|
Post by 00hmh on Aug 22, 2021 11:19:22 GMT -6
"I am all for studying the matter."..............Okay so are Hannity and Carlson, they were questioning why the FDA shut down the funding for this and other therapeutics. Link to a story you think shows that is their main point, I don't see it. Do a site search on FOX about these two and Covid. How many of the stories are about neglect by FDA on treatment not related to requiring further study or slowing approval based on inconclusive study? That is their job... In fact the stories by Tucker are much more about defending Vaccine hesitancy and downplaying the Covid threat. Tucker offers up half a dozen vaccine skeptic ideas, then enthusiastically introduces an untested treatment. Doesn't that feed the story that vaccine isn't really so necessary? Hannity states the treatment is helping people, when there is no real evidence of that. Hannity does not say that the drug needs study, does not mention it isn't ready for prime time, along with exaggerating the efficacy. Less bad than Tucker who overtly discourages vaccine use by his actions. But not careful journalism.
Rachel called them out on that fairly, and played the clips which seem to show that.
|
|
|
|
Post by bsutrack on Aug 22, 2021 15:04:26 GMT -6
I am talking about the linked study with the following bullet points.......... Highlights: Ivermectin is an inhibitor of the COVID-19 causative virus (SARS-CoV-2) in vitro.
I am all for studying the matter. NOT for using untested drugs in guess work dosage that MIGHT work as a substitute for vaccination which definitely works. The problem is the vaccines are showing some holes in their "armor". Take Israel for example, one of the most heavily vaccinated countries on the planet. 63% of the Israeli population are fully vaccinated. Another 5% have one dose, so 68% of their population has the vaccine; yet 50% of their recent Covid-19 cases are breakthrough cases. The infected folks were vaccinated against Covid-19 yet still got it. www.precisionvaccinations.com/2021/08/11/israels-covid-19-vaccine-breakthrough-cases-exceed-50"The Israeli government is forecasting that the number of patients hospitalized with COVID-19 could double every 10 days." If you listened to the video of the virology expert I linked in an earlier in an earlier post, he explained why this is happening. The vaccines are a one-trick pony. They create antibodies that block the spike protein on the virus from attaching itself. The amount of antibodies created to do this decrease with time; hence the need for a series of booster shots to re-create this initial effect. Contrast this to a normal infection where the body's entire defense system is activated to fight the virus. After the virus is beaten, this entire defense system is left behind to protect against future infection. This is why folks who have beaten the Covid-19 without the vaccine are better protected than those who have just the vaccine. Senator Rand Paul's defense for not getting the vaccine. So in other words, it might be time to adjust to conditions. Maybe a series of therapeutics to treat folks with the onset of Covid-19 is the better, and only way to conquer this. Ivermectin might (and I do say might) be one of these. This is what Ron DeSantis is attempting with his monoclonal antibody therapy treatment centers in the State of Florida. This goes back to my earlier post suggesting the Biden Administration will not be able to adjust to changing conditions just like their failure in Afghanistan to adjust there. The Biden Administration just wants to double down on their current game plan. Cases go up, bring back the masks and lockdowns. Breakthrough infections, shoot people up with boosters at 8 month, maybe 6 month, maybe even 3 month intervals. I do wonder how much Ivermectin played a role in controlling Covid-19 in India and how the Indians were taking it. Your 1 day stat on increased cases in India must of been a 1 day data glitch. It doesn't seem to be a sustained trend. covid19.who.int/region/searo/country/inThe last full week of data (August 9-15) was only 258,000 cases vs. 2,738,000 cases in early May. Even the next week (August 16-22) which is missing a day of data appears to be in decline. It's like you notice very few people die or get infected on Sunday in the USA, but on Monday the numbers are way up. It's because most of Sunday's data and Monday's get reported on Monday. Nobody works on Sunday to compile the data. That is probably what happened on the 1 day report you provided the link to. In a way, I hope Ivermectin played a insignificant role in controlling the delta variant surge in India. If it didn't, the better the chances for the USA that delta only last approximately 3 months here. In contrast, if India beat it because of Ivermectin and we refuse to use it, delta Covid-19 could be with us a long time. |
|
|
|
Post by 00hmh on Aug 22, 2021 16:44:43 GMT -6
I am all for studying the matter. NOT for using untested drugs in guess work dosage that MIGHT work as a substitute for vaccination which definitely works. The problem is the vaccines are showing some holes in their "armor". That hole has to do with antibody concentration dropping over time. It is certainly true the virus could evolve so that vaccines did not work.
THAT is why we need to get people vaccinated at a very high rate. Fewer cases means fewer chances for that variation to develop.
So step one is to reduce the amount of variation. We can do that with existing vaccine.
Given the extremely poor vaccination rate we have where the surge is occurring now, in places similar to India, I hope we have the same pattern. The difference is we could have prevented it and had better be worried about the NEXT surge where our best bet to prevent it is vaccination.
|
|
|
|
Post by 00hmh on Aug 22, 2021 17:03:42 GMT -6
I am all for studying the matter. NOT for using untested drugs in guess work dosage that MIGHT work as a substitute for vaccination which definitely works. The problem is the vaccines are showing some holes In a way, I hope Ivermectin played a insignificant role in controlling the delta variant surge in India. If it didn't, the better the chances for the USA that delta only last approximately 3 months here. In contrast, if India beat it because of Ivermectin and we refuse to use it, delta Covid-19 could be with us a long time. This last argument doesn't seem to prevent you from arguing against masks and vaccines which have quite a lot of evidence supporting the impact on disease spread.
You are making some progress to recognize how dangerous variation is. When I suggested earlier in this thread the threat of variation, there were posts proclaiming I was silly to be worried. You and others argued against my position that vaccination was urgent, not just to protect yourself but to control variation.
I am glad you now recognize the threat. Variation is NOT a reason to refuse to vaccinate for the strain(s) which currently are causing problems. A treatment is a good idea, but it is locking the barn door after the horse is gone with respect to preventing variation. I have no problem with working on treatment. Just in using a drug which is not proven efficacious and before it is known to be safe. BTW, the very same problem of variation could make any treatment fail... I hope studies can identify better treatment. I am sympathetic with the doctors who are pushing for the use, and FLCC doctors actually say they do NOT believe vaccination should be suspect. They have a quarrel with FDA protocol on approval. I get that. However, FDA approval standards are reasonable and most physicians are NOT convinced by the data we have to use the drug for Covid.
As for Desantis, it is lunacy to actually forbid people from using masks and discouraging vaccination. Promoting better treatment is fine, but there is no reason to downplay prevention.
I would not worry too much that Invermectin is a magic bullet which can knock out Covid. The Indian positive rate is back to the same levels before their surge and shows no real sign of decrease. Invermectin was used on a small portion of their population which were infected. It's a good bet that its impact was insignificant.
Just looking at the cases where it was used, the data from India and the rest of the world where both hydroxychloroquine and Invermectin have been used, that data is mixed. There is considerable problem with the data supporting any treatment use, much less that it caused the decline in cases. See the data in the post above. India has a different population demographic in many ways. The Indian data you are so impressed with is NOT replicated elsewhere. Nor is it convincing in India.
Get people vaccinated. Where there is high infection rate wear a mask and distance. Continue controlled rigorous study of treatment. Do not forbid private company and school efforts to mitigate spread.
Let's trust the US science data more than the suspect anti vax data and treatment data you see reported on the vaccine skeptic conspiracy site.
|
|
|
|
Post by bsutrack on Aug 23, 2021 13:05:35 GMT -6
You are making some progress to recognize how dangerous variation is. When I suggested earlier in this thread the threat of variation, there were posts proclaiming I was silly to be worried. You and others argued against my position that vaccination was urgent, not just to protect yourself but to control variation.
I am glad you now recognize the threat. Variation is NOT a reason to refuse to vaccinate for the strain(s) which currently are causing problems. A treatment is a good idea, but it is locking the barn door after the horse is gone with respect to preventing variation. I think you are giving me too much credit here. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, most variants tend to become more contagious, but less deadly with time. It makes no sense for the virus to kill-off the host; just spread faster to be successful. That's exactly how the Delta Variant is behaving. It's certainly more contagious; however, the hard data indicates it's approximately 1/10th as deadly. My main concerns with the Delta Variant are the socialists in the Democratic Party will over react and kill the economy which is finally showing signs of recovery and/or use it to push through their massive spending plans. On the former, they seem to be smart enough so far to stay away from lockdowns such as the current mess in Australia. Probably it was a lot more appealing to kill the economy with Trump as president because it had the side benefit of getting him out of office. Now that it's Biden's economy, maybe he will take better care of it. As for the Democrats' $3.5 trillion "human infrastructure" spending bill, which is actually the Green New Deal and social re-engineering, it's like Rahm Emanuel used to say, "never let a crisis go to waste". In this case, they need to keep the crisis going hence all the panic porn of the Delta Variant. Socialist Democrats: "We're in a crisis, we must pass our massive spending bills to save the country". We have spent way too much money we don't have on this already on this. The CPI for the last 12 months is 5.4%. www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cpi.pdfIf that isn't bad enough, ever since the Boskin Commission of 1996 the way our government calculates inflation is way too low. If inflation was calculated like it was before the Boskin Commission, it would be above 7.0%. The $3.5 trillion "human infrastructure" bill, as well as the $1.2 trillion physical infrastructure bill passed by the Senate (which only has about $300 billion in roads, bridges, and real real physical infrastructure) is mainly funded by printing money out of thin air. If all $5 trillion of this shit gets through, inflation should easily go to 15% on an annual basis. |
|
|
|
Post by 00hmh on Aug 23, 2021 14:25:12 GMT -6
You are making some progress to recognize how dangerous variation is. When I suggested earlier in this thread the threat of variation, there were posts proclaiming I was silly to be worried. You and others argued against my position that vaccination was urgent, not just to protect yourself but to control variation.
I am glad you now recognize the threat. Variation is NOT a reason to refuse to vaccinate for the strain(s) which currently are causing problems. A treatment is a good idea, but it is locking the barn door after the horse is gone with respect to preventing variation. I think you are giving me too much credit here. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, most variants tend to become more contagious, but less deadly with time. It makes no sense for the virus to kill-off the host; just spread faster to be successful. That's exactly how the Delta Variant is behaving. It's certainly more contagious; however, the hard data indicates it's approximately 1/10th as deadly.That logic is faulty on both counts. You are repeating and combining two pieces of misinformation circulating.
Mutation means a virus just changes. MOST changes do nothing. Sometime a change works to make it more contagious and that virus will spread rapidly and tend to be dominant. A mutation that makes it more deadly could occur in the very contagious variant, might then kill off the host, but if it is a mutation of a contagious virus it has no way to know that.
It is inaccurate. to compare death rate of the original variant in in those not vaccinated with those now who are vaccinated and aware of the dangers. The death rate in England with delta among those over 50 and not vaccinated is just as high as previous variants.
The fact is fewer deaths total among the whole population is perhaps lower because large numbers of the more vulnerable have either died or been vaccinated. There is evidence that among children the fast replicating delta is able to do MORE harm to children.
Numerous species have been killed off by a mutated virus. In human history we have not encountered one that can spread widely enough to do that. What is new in history is how interconnected the world is. But let's assume the human race survives. LARGE populations could easily be killed off as the virus kills large numbers of its hosts and dies off. Somewhere else people survive, but I don't want to be part of that population that died off.
Those not vaccinated are at greatest risk, those who don't believe in mitigation are at risk. A great pool in which this more deadly variant of present virus could develop. Perhaps able to evade the vaccine.
|
|
|
|
Post by 00hmh on Aug 24, 2021 13:52:36 GMT -6
I am all for studying the matter. NOT for using untested drugs in guess work dosage that MIGHT work as a substitute for vaccination which definitely works. The problem is the vaccines are showing some holes in their "armor".
Would be great news if we can get something like this baby into trials and production! It needs testing of course. It might never work, but we have some hope here of response to the variants.
If the original vaccine could get emergency use approval in less than a year perhaps we will see this research or some other research be available next year some time. The MRNA technology does allow rapid changes in the vaccine so it's not clear how long a changed vaccine should take.
In the meantime mask around anyone who is not vaccinated and get the third shot in the series of Moderna or Pfizer. |
|
|
|
Post by bsutrack on Aug 24, 2021 19:42:07 GMT -6
It is inaccurate. to compare death rate of the original variant in in those not vaccinated with those now who are vaccinated and aware of the dangers. The death rate in England with delta among those over 50 and not vaccinated is just as high as previous variants.
The fact is fewer deaths total among the whole population is perhaps lower because large numbers of the more vulnerable have either died or been vaccinated. There is evidence that among children the fast replicating delta is able to do MORE harm to children.
Let's consider for a moment just what you have laid out in the argument above. To paraphrase, outside of the high risk groups (those above 65 and those with underlying conditions) Covid-19 isn't that particularly deadly. Let's go back to the data from the United Kingdom: covid19.who.int/region/euro/country/gbThe highest rate of infection in the "Delta Wave" was the week of July 12th, 2021 with 296,447 reported cases. Using a 2 week lag for those infected potentially dying, for the week of July 26th there were 524 deaths. 524/296,447 is a 0.18% death rate. If you want to use 3 weeks later, the week of August 2 when 627 dead 627/296,447 which is a 0.21% death rate. Now we both know there are many more asymptomatic cases than those that get reported. If there was just one case that goes unreported for one that is reported, those 0.18% and 0.21% death rates become approximately 0.1%.
The generally accepted death rate for seasonal influenza is 0.1%. You have just built a case for Covid-19 being equivalent to influenza for the general population. Congratulations, glad to see you are finally coming around to reality! And we locked down and crushed our economy for this? Then had to re-start our economy with money printed out of thin air that has sparked massive inflation. And on inflation, looks like the socialists in Congress are going to get their way with another $5 trillion of spending. The run-up in inflation is just getting started. |
|
|
|
Post by bsutrack on Aug 24, 2021 20:02:16 GMT -6
Currently Australia is attempting to lockdown their population in response to an increase on Covid-19. Their government claims the lockdowns will continue until they reach a 70% vaccination rate. Unfortunately their current vaccine rate is more like 25% (must be a bunch of Trump supporters). Their population is starting to rebel with protests in most of their major cities over the weekend. www.cnn.com/2021/08/21/asia/australia-covid-worst-day-intl-hnk/index.htmlTruckers are even considering blockading the major cities to cut-off supplies in a hope to drive-out the current government. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9917753/Australian-truck-drivers-prepare-stage-Covid-protest-blocking-highway.htmlThe problem is what if they do reach their 70% vaccination goal and become Israel? Israel is one of the most vaccinated countries on earth, with 80 percent of citizens above the age of 12 fully inoculated. Yet, this Tuesday Israel reported 9,831 new diagnosed cases, just a few cases away from the worse daily figure ever recorded of 10,000. This was after having several days of zero cases earlier this summer. Early this July, with citizens over the age of 60 almost completely vaccinated, Israeli scientists began observing a worrisome rise in infections among the double-vaccinated. At which time Israel began giving booster shots, but it really hasn't helped much as of yet. Maybe they will need to go back into lockdown too? |
|
|
|
Post by 00hmh on Aug 24, 2021 20:44:59 GMT -6
It is inaccurate. to compare death rate of the original variant in in those not vaccinated with those now who are vaccinated and aware of the dangers. The death rate in England with delta among those over 50 and not vaccinated is just as high as previous variants.
The fact is fewer deaths total among the whole population is perhaps lower because large numbers of the more vulnerable have either died or been vaccinated. There is evidence that among children the fast replicating delta is able to do MORE harm to children.
To paraphrase, outside of the high risk groups (those above 65 and those with underlying conditions) Covid-19 isn't that particularly deadly. You have just built a case for Covid-19 being equivalent to influenza for the general population. No not a paraphrase at all. That is a ridiculous interpretation. Not only is the threat of death more severe with Covid, but so is other severe disease requiring hospital care.
England had a high vaccination rate relative to the areas experiencing a delta surge currently. In England the most at risk were vaccinated. What is true is there were fewer deadly cases in this different population than in that encountered by the original variant.
Nor is that the population the delta variant is encountering in many areas of this country now.
In a general population that is NOT vaccinated and NOT aware of the danger, NOT practicing mitigation, both variants of Covid are far more deadly than the flu. delta is more highly transmissible, so MORE likely to produce deaths than the original variant.
Early on with the original variant, we knew little about the virus and its dangers, were not vaccinated, and did not practice mitigation. The prudent choice early in the pandemic was made when we shut down. Perhaps had we been prepared with 20-20 hindsight and willing to universally mask that would not have been necessary. Perhaps if we had practiced mitigation after shut down was over, we'd be much better off now. We did not.
Even later in LA with much more knowledge and much greater degree of mitigation we needed to shut down. India needed to shut down as have other European communities. That was not always due to death rate but due both potential death rate and due to severe illness that required hospitalization to save lives, and where hospital capacity was being overrun. The death rate in India was severe due to shortage of oxygen and hospital beds. We are suffering staff shortage and in Texas with over 20 million people there are 300 ICU beds available. Could this be a problem?
We may need to shut down in certain areas experiencing a surge for that reason. No ICU capacity and no staff due to Covid means no treatment for cardiac care, automobile injuries, and other emergencies that are severe.
Many places no, we won't need to shut down, since we are vaccinated and many now mitigate by masking but we still very likely may need to return to mask mandates, and other mitigation we did not need before delta.
If you are NOT vaccinated and are vulnerable as is a large part of the population in states experiencing a surge Covid is now more transmissible, more widespread, and more likely to be quite deadly for you.
This is not the flu.
Get vaccinated and mask up so you don't pass on an infection if you are an asymptomatic case.
Don't count on Invermectin to solve the problem.
|
|
|
|
Post by 00hmh on Aug 25, 2021 13:27:53 GMT -6
You are making some progress to recognize how dangerous variation is. When I suggested earlier in this thread the threat of variation, there were posts proclaiming I was silly to be worried. You and others argued against my position that vaccination was urgent, not just to protect yourself but to control variation.
I am glad you now recognize the threat. Variation is NOT a reason to refuse to vaccinate for the strain(s) which currently are causing problems. A treatment is a good idea, but it is locking the barn door after the horse is gone with respect to preventing variation. That's exactly how the Delta Variant is behaving. It's certainly more contagious; however, the hard data indicates it's approximately 1/10th as deadly.
I wonder why that is true since delta is 1/10 as deadly according to your math.
The answer is as I tried to explain above is that the level of current deaths at a given time depend on the population. Comparison must be of similar populations to be valid. And of course how many infections in the population. Deaths depend on not only how many cases we are seeing, but also on how many vulnerable people are vaccinated and avoid infection or have it at a lower level as a result. The rate of death for those infected with one variant or another is not the same as number of deaths due to one variant. Not unless circumstances are similar to compare. That also depends on current mitigation efforts which act to reduce viral load for those infected as well as to slow spread.
The article also looks at Florida versus California results. Florida which I believe you have praised for emphasizing treatments is a state where politicians and leaders have disparaged mitigation, and vaccination, and actually is trying to prevent schools from masking and requiring vaccination. Not a rigorous study in the article where it concedes it may be tricky to compare states, but Florida sure seems to be having a worse time with delta than California where the more effective public health measures have been emphasized. Also a state with a shutdown as a spike occurred in LA.
Any way you cut it cannot be good that Florida has more deaths now with a good deal of their vulnerable population vaccinated.
I would make a wild guess this reflects two things. delta is at least as deadly and/or Florida is doing worse with mitigation of the virus in the population not vaccinated. When you declare the pandemic over and business as usual you would expect that.
They don't release figures in Florida very readily to look at the numbers to tell about that guess.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Aug 25, 2021 14:23:10 GMT -6
You linked to Yahoo?
C'mon, man... At least find a reputable source.
|
|
|
|
Post by 00hmh on Aug 25, 2021 17:48:27 GMT -6
You linked to Yahoo? C'mon, man... At least find a reputable source. I applaud the sentiment.
These are public health figures reported many places. There is a link in the story to the source site which publishes great graphics showing the history and updated daily using statistics from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, state governments, U.S. Census Bureau.
.
|
|
|
|
Post by 00hmh on Aug 26, 2021 8:46:24 GMT -6
Previous study is confirmed that it is more common in the vaccinated than those not vaccinated, but the odds are not very great overall for vaccinated people, maybe 1 in 5000, and it is a risk that leads rarely to serious health concerns. That same risk exists more commonly if you get the virus.
Of course not everyone gets Covid who is not vaccinated (although delta may be changing that). If you do, health issues are more severe consequence, serious illness and death much more common.
In addition to serious Covid illness and death, there are more cases where coronavirus infection was associated with an increased risk of heart attacks, irregular heart beat, blood clots in the lungs or legs, kidney injury and bleeding inside the skull (For every 100,000 infections, there were many other risks, including an extra 25 heart attacks and 62 cases of blood clots in the lungs, for instance). That would be 4 in 5000 for just those two risks which are more serious than myocarditis in young males who are the most at risk of myocarditis.
So what's the bottom line if you are risk averse to any health consequence? Even in the worst-case scenarios of post-vaccination myocarditis and pericarditis modeled by the F.D.A., the benefits of vaccination still outweighed the risks. And the risks of vaccination are very small.
|
|
|
|
Post by 00hmh on Aug 26, 2021 9:07:47 GMT -6
Cost of free choice, even without mandate and even if you are willing to take a greater risk of Covid. Somebody has to pay for the increased medical costs to the company.
Those not vaccinated are imposing a tax on their company plan and fellow employees. Many or most employee health insurance plans in large companies are self insured with an insurance company administrator. Those not vaccinated create greater risk for themselves not to mention other employees and customers.
New New Republic liberals oppose this plan The issue for them is that health insurance should be universal and government funded. I certainly cannot agree with this argument where the individual has a cheap easy way to reduce the risk. |
|
