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Post by williamtsherman on Aug 25, 2016 7:49:40 GMT -6
For years I argued with football program supporters that, although both football and basketball were losing money, it was plausible that basketball could become self-supporting (or close to it) while football had no chance to be anything but a huge money sink hole. I now have to admit that the evidence against my assertion has piled up to a level that can no longer be denied. Obviously, I was right about football, but I was wrong about basketball.
I reasoned that with Majerus/Hunsaker/McCallum we had a string of three successful coaches. I believe that the program, during these years, was making enough to either bring in a profit to the school, or at least come close enough that the positive exposure far out-weighed the cost of any deficit. I further reasoned that anything you could do three times in a row, you could do again. That is where I was mistaken. Apparently it is much less likely than I ever dreamed that BSU could have Presidents and/or AD's with the motivation and competence to recognize and employ successful basketball coaches. I've lost track of how many presidents and AD's we've had since Ray left, but the common thread has been that they have all made consistently terrible decisions about hiring and extending basketball coaches. Whether this was due to lack of caring or lack of intelligence, I can't say, and it doesn't really matter anyway.
This board is roughly divided into two groups: one group has, for fifteen years, been in strong denial about the quality of our coaches and the state of the program, another group (that I was part of) admitted the problems along the way, but thought that some day we could reasonably expect to get another championship coach. The Whitford extension was the last straw for me. That finally convinced me that the administrative will and the competence are simply not there.
All the evidence of the last 16 years points to the basketball program continuing to be a money drain on the university, and that any value in having the program is outweighed by the millions lost. In other words, it's just a junior version of the football program. To my way of thinking, it is unconscionable to take money out of the students, many of whom are already racking up big debt, to pay for this luxury.
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Post by JacksonStreetElite on Aug 25, 2016 8:14:46 GMT -6
You're leaving out a third group of people who are graduates of the school, like basketball, and want the best for the program but don't really care enough one way or the other to get too worked up over it if we're not doing well.
Maybe I'm the only one in that group. But if you're trying to get my dander up you'd have a much better chance with things that actually matter in life (like the government's rampant and flagrant abuse of civil asset forfeiture), than you will with the success of ten 18-21 year old's playing basketball for the school I happened to graduate from.
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Post by 00hmh on Aug 25, 2016 9:22:29 GMT -6
Sherman may just be wrong about the financial viability of basketball.
Of coures, he may be right we have made bad decisions, worst than most mid majors, but much of that decision making after the real disaster named Ronnie, and the money we sunk into football which did not work out well, those decisions after that were driven by the financial limitations facing all mid major sports. His call to fire coaches like a reality show mogul ignores what administration can do, and I object to his prescription for change.
The real error in his overall defeatist analysis is that it assumes the on court product since Taylor cannot be improved, and that we have no chance to regain good will of the fan base, also that TV revenue and other sources of revenue cannot be enhanced. He assumes nothing has changed in college basketball, and we have to do now what we might have done way back then. And that we are bound to make the same mistakes. I just don't buy we'll ever have a Ronnie Thompson again. It just isn't as easy as he thinks to make clear winning decisions, but no reason to assume we can't and I think our AD is making a good effort. He may be right that we cannot ever regain the national prominence we flirted with under Majerus and Hunsaker. Fair enough.
I don't think long term success in football is likely for us and our AD, and most other AD's. Basketball still has a chance. This is true for most mid major football and basketball programs. It is not just BSU facing the problem. I conclude things do have to change. Still I see no reason to abandon hope about basketball, although I am a pessimist about football. However, like the nuclear arms race of the last century, don't see us dropping football until that situation actually explodes...with the good news that at which point basketball would immediately be much more viable!
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Post by david75bsu on Aug 25, 2016 9:27:28 GMT -6
You're leaving out a third group of people who are graduates of the school, like basketball, and want the best for the program but don't really care enough one way or the other to get too worked up over it if we're not doing well. Maybe I'm the only one in that group. But if you're trying to get my dander up you'd have a much better chance with things that actually matter in life (like the government's rampant and flagrant abuse of civil asset forfeiture), than you will with the success of ten 18-21 year old's playing basketball for the school I happened to graduate from. I guess l' m in both camps to a degree. I want us to compete in fb and bb. I would also Love to see MAC Champions in both at a minimum of every four years. Let's be honest about the MAC and BSU - none of us are ever going to win a national title in these two sports, NEVER! However we should be able to reasonably compete within our conference. Lasr year I found the basketball team to be enjoyable to watch. I would have been a little happier had they won one of their final few games and won the West. But it was still a good year. I feel this year could be even better. Football has been real disappointing for the most part since the 12-0 year. Again, we will never win a national title, but we should be competitive. I am one of the smaller group that could see us dropping down a level and join the conference with Indiana State. Maybe focus a little harder on basketball. A real problem with me is the MAC plays to many games during the week in November. I work and attending these games during the week since I live 2.5 hours away does not work for me. This is the first year in my forty years of holding season tickets that I said no to renewing. I bleed Cardinal and White but this is where I stand.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2016 9:54:18 GMT -6
I believe Basketball is still a plausible profit targeted enterprise, however it may take yet another reworking of the business model and management structure.
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Post by 00hmh on Aug 25, 2016 10:23:39 GMT -6
I believe Basketball is still a plausible profit targeted enterprise, however it may take yet another reworking of the business model and management structure. Since this is all driven by University valuation of the good will generated by sports, and by the University Administration being driven by "best practices" which means how everyone else does it, the changes are going to have to involve how other similar universities decide to address the same issues. Since right now that NCAA money in basketball is a unique revenue source, together with the NCAA and regional TV, what happens in the future will depend on those contracts between the NCAA and TV. But overall, I think a more marketable product. On the revenue side in football, the loss of economic power by everyone except the power conferences is going to create crisis first, it appears. Probably implosion rather than explosion is the right term to use. Football at all but the highest level may be headed to a D3 structure, with little revenue and need to drastically cut costs. Basketball with smaller expense side, more parity, and more interest generated by the tourney (which unlike bowl games actually makes money for the parties too), that sport has more options.
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Post by thebsukid on Aug 25, 2016 10:51:13 GMT -6
I generally agree in large part to a lot of what the General says...we won't argue that Majerus was the best we've seen and Hunsaker certainly knew how to win, and Ray was one of ours and won albeit he was not the greatest disciplinary coach. I think Buck did he reasonably good job and we probably all wished he were back after getting a glimpse of Thompson....this guy set us back a decade...you think he put a bad taste in our mouths...how about interacting with players and HS Coaches...you don't think his act & reputation was passed on down through our players to HS players and he really hurt the overall status of the program that had built?? You may not like Buck but Thompson could not carry his bags. Buck still won a lot of games...looked like a top 10 team at Maui, and went to the Elite 8 of the NIT playing mainly on the road. Failure in some of your books...maybe, but not in mine.
I know that many did not like Taylor as a Coach but he was a very good man, and he took over the Titanic. He had a decent resume...played at ND, was Asst at NC Wilmington I believe and Head Coach at Lehigh where he was named Conference Coach of the Year. He did not given his resume seem like a bad Coach. He in my view was not the guy to take us to the promised land but he did help right the ship. The timing looking back was right for a change.
Now, Whit, school is still out...agree, however, we won more games last season than we have in years!!!! Those that hate hearing this say but the schedule was weak...ok, give you that too...but we competed every game and tied for the MAC West, and played well even if the post season tournament even if it was third rate. The fact is his kids seem to stay out of trouble, make grades other than Tyler who's back and should have a monster Jr year. Whit seems to recruit good kids that make grades and are good players. Like it or not this years edition of the Cards will have more Indiana All Stars than any other Card team I can think of. I know before Cardfan or Halftime posts it...who cares about Indiana All Stars...we are playing a tougher schedule this season with a team thats now Whit's team...I'm saying this season looks bright and we will win a lot of games...22 or more, and we will compete for the MAC Championship...if we do there will be considerably less negative posters on at least the bb board.
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Post by cardfan on Aug 25, 2016 10:58:26 GMT -6
I've never said "who cares about Indiana All-stars." And never will.
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Post by david75bsu on Aug 25, 2016 11:21:03 GMT -6
I generally agree in large part to a lot of what the General says...we won't argue that Majerus was the best we've seen and Hunsaker certainly knew how to win, and Ray was one of ours and won albeit he was not the greatest disciplinary coach. I think Buck did he reasonably good job and we probably all wished he were back after getting a glimpse of Thompson....this guy set us back a decade...you think he put a bad taste in our mouths...how about interacting with players and HS Coaches...you don't think his act & reputation was passed on down through our players to HS players and he really hurt the overall status of the program that had built?? You may not like Buck but Thompson could not carry his bags. Buck still won a lot of games...looked like a top 10 team at Maui, and went to the Elite 8 of the NIT playing mainly on the road. Failure in some of your books...maybe, but not in mine. I know that many did not like Taylor as a Coach but he was a very good man, and he took over the Titanic. He had a decent resume...played at ND, was Asst at NC Wilmington I believe and Head Coach at Lehigh where he was named Conference Coach of the Year. He did not given his resume seem like a bad Coach. He in my view was not the guy to take us to the promised land but he did help right the ship. The timing looking back was right for a change. Now, Whit, school is still out...agree, however, we won more games last season than we have in years!!!! Those that hate hearing this say but the schedule was weak...ok, give you that too...but we competed every game and tied for the MAC West, and played well even if the post season tournament even if it was third rate. The fact is his kids seem to stay out of trouble, make grades other than Tyler who's back and should have a monster Jr year. Whit seems to recruit good kids that make grades and are good players. Like it or not this years edition of the Cards will have more Indiana All Stars than any other Card team I can think of. I know before Cardfan or Halftime posts it...who cares about Indiana All Stars...we are playing a tougher schedule this season with a team thats now Whit's team...I'm saying this season looks bright and we will win a lot of games...22 or more, and we will compete for the MAC Championship...if we do there will be considerably less negative posters on at least the bb board. Excellent post.
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Post by cardfan on Aug 25, 2016 11:53:29 GMT -6
If he proves he can get us back to a reasonable level of championships and NCAA appearances then of course we'll be much happier. That's how it works.
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Post by reevo on Aug 25, 2016 13:00:49 GMT -6
Call me negative all you want but I will never be happy with the basketball program until we are consistently the best the MAC offers. You guys are just going to have to live with me cause I am not going away.
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Post by 00hmh on Aug 25, 2016 13:50:51 GMT -6
Call me negative all you want but I will never be happy with the basketball program until we are consistently the best the MAC offers. You guys are just going to have to live with me cause I am not going away. That we can do, but it is much harder now, and those teams Mjerus put together may always be the best in our history.
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Post by 00hmh on Aug 25, 2016 15:30:23 GMT -6
Now that the General has sworn off football and basketball, he has a great opportunity to follow some of BSU's best sports teams more closely. 3 women's teams in action already this weekendAnd of course I recommend baseball and softball in season, and golf and tennis are strong, along with the ladies on the track. These sports are low budget and feature high character athletes who are generally very good students and represent us well. Of course for all his posts I don't think he actually bought a ticket or came to many games or was really involved but I hope he is ready to enjoy the "minor sports" now no admission price in most cases, and where he will be able to find a new life in which to support BSU athletics. Of course his Scrooge personality will no doubt lead to complaint about the meager revenue being produced, so maybe he will keep his edge criticizing all that is BSU sports over on the other forums and will give some equal opportunity especially to the women to enjoy his analysis and derisive critiques of how they could be better so easily.
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Post by Bigfoot on Aug 25, 2016 18:00:52 GMT -6
I will just say I believe we can compete in football and basketball on a consistent basis in the MAC. In doing so I also think we can have teams in these sports that get some national recognition by breaking into the polls.
I believe that is a reasonable expectation for Ball State along with putting education first for our student athlete's.
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Post by 00hmh on Aug 25, 2016 19:03:11 GMT -6
Our ability and the ability of the MAC to continue having this level of expense in football is threatened and what happens in the future, not so far in the future, is the problem I see. I don't go as far as Sherman to believe it is hopeless, but something major has to change.
I just don't think we can continue to subsidize football out of student fees long term, not at this level of spending.
In the short run, I see no change coming, for reasons I mention above. Long term, how we can play at the same level as the big boys on a budget a fraction of theirs just is beyond me. And this is not just our problem, it is a problem facing every mid major program.
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