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Post by cardfan on Feb 24, 2018 10:05:08 GMT -6
Call it what you will, but we DO play stupid and situationally dumb too often. How many games have we won during our most recent streak where we have five or six possessions in a row with either a turnover or an ill-timed shot. Too many. That ends up biting you in the ass eventually against better teams. Last night, again, we had several opportunities to create or extend a small lead and forced a pass/shot. And I still don’t understand the Kiapway mothball situation. Someone explain that to me and how that benefits our program or honors a kid who has been here four years? I’ve softened on Whitford over the past few months because I thought he had grown emotionally after the ZH tragedy but his in game gaffes and this exile bullshit is pushing me back towards the dark side. 🤯🤬 Right there with ya on all that. Hell, who needs to play a senior, veteran, heavily experienced guard on senior night while the couple of guards we do have are sucking wind or are out of their league?!? Watched Francis during after halftime warmups. He was loose and bouncy and energetic and was draining shots. But no we couldn’t have used some fresh legs and some experience.
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Post by david75bsu on Feb 24, 2018 10:08:01 GMT -6
Just proves that outside motivations aren't necessary to influence this team. They will play good or bad solely on their own. They shot poorly and turned the ball over too much. They missed free throws. Persons did not play his best, which hurt, but he was also trying to defend and had a tough assignment that took something out of him. In fact none of these things reflected any lack of motivation or effort. They were tight at times and there was was some loss of focus especially in crunch time, but if anything it was trying too hard to do something. Mental mistakes. Biggest problem all night was that our defense just wasn't as quite sharp as it has been but again not due to lack of effort. Wilder is a handful and they had a couple of guys who shot the 3 which stretched us further. We just are not a team with the quickness to help and recover, or to stop the very quick opponents. Great defensive effort, perfect anticipation can make up for a little of that, we had the effort but were just not quite as good on defense as we have been. Teague and Mallers went very hard for blocked shots and got called for it. Should they have done it? Too hard an effort. Not careless thoughtless lack of attention though. Perhaps a very few times there was negligent mistake, a few poor shots selected, Ish lost the ball and we through the ball away after fighting hard for a rebound and starting the break. But, this was not the norm. We came out at the start both halves and played well, built a lead with excellent focus. This is not a sign of a lackadaisical effort or lack of ability to focus. They responded well to challenge several times. They hit the skids at the end of the game, possibly fatigue, but I am not inclined to make too much of that, the critical fouls, Western playing well, I'll give them credit for that. I'll lament that we let the game slip away with the misses and the turnovers. This team seems to me to do better at focus when they are underdogs and although they have gained confidence they are less comfortable as favorites. Whitford nailed this in his press conference. Excellent post! No more needs to be said for my part.
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Post by 00hmh on Feb 24, 2018 10:11:01 GMT -6
Had won 5 in a row and 6 of 7. Perspective folks. Yes, an egg was laid. But it's not the end of things. Got to just forget this one. It's how they respond to finish out. Limping in in a Billy Taylor like fashion would be hugely disappointing. Two very winnable road games ahead. Got to hold the bye. Yes, we laid an egg, but look at the Toledo game. The match up for us with Western is not good. Played strong most of the way but faltered in the end. Match ups are the key. A very quick guard is poison right now. Persons worked very hard, but it took a toll on him and he really could at best only slow down his opposite number. Not much to do about it but use Josh, but it is a match up we are in general losing with the big lineup. Given the relatively low quality of MAC big men, and the number of pretty good guards, on ball defense has to be a major issue for next year. The quickness Western had also bothered Persons and they could face guard him pretty effectively, took him out of the game. When he finally was able to get some fouls, unfortunately he was unable to convert. KJ Walton is not quite as lightening quick as some of these guys, but he is going to help defending this kind of player. Ish with another year will improve on defense, looked better in recent games. The long armed bigger 2018 recruit guards we have will also be better than Persons on D and if we are going to be a defensive team, provide some depth.
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Post by Hoopsmith on Feb 24, 2018 10:11:33 GMT -6
After time to unwind from the game and sleep off its sour result, these are the most common themes and takes on the defeat. Despite a couple of things already addressed that I'll get to shortly, I didn't think we played all that badly. We had command of the game for 30 minutes, were holding down Wilder and it got away at the end, mainly due to the following: 1) Foul shooting: It was there in the first half, disappeared in the second. The reverse happened to Western. Maybe loosen the rims at the BSU bench end of the floor? 2) Fouls: We shouldn't be fouling three-point shooters and that happened at least twice last night. That said, anyone else think the whistle came really late on the Mallers foul? You make that call right away, not after it bounces off the rim, leading to... 3) Officiating: Didn't cost us the game, but an argument could be made it was costly to either team. See the Mallers foul, Western's usual goon play in the pivot, and several of the second half fouls on WMU were a flat-out joke. I'm sure JD Collins and the league office loved having 52 foul shots broadcast nationally. Just another night in the MAC. And finally... 4)Coaching: Sorry coach Whitford, I've vouched for you a lot, but you pulled Moses down the stretch when he still had 4 or 5 fouls to give, and WMU promptly scored twice inside to get close and tie. Plus Hawkins managed to rest his best player for a long stretch with him struggling and 3 fouls, and get the lead then. When he came back in I figured he'd have his way with us. Several people have brought up Kiapway not starting and getting no minutes, and the starting part seems overrated to me at the D1 level, and its understandable that a scholarship player would turn down token minutes, as in the case of Davis. That said, I would've liked to see him on the floor for a few minutes. I think he's a battler and a defender, even if he's turned into Steve Sax with his shot.
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Post by 00hmh on Feb 24, 2018 10:26:33 GMT -6
Call it what you will, but we DO play stupid and situationally dumb too often. How many games have we won during our most recent streak where we have five or six possessions in a row with either a turnover or an ill-timed shot. Too many. That ends up biting you in the ass eventually against better teams. Last night, again, we had several opportunities to create or extend a small lead and forced a pass/shot. And I still don’t understand the Kiapway mothball situation. Someone explain that to me and how that benefits our program or honors a kid who has been here four years? I’ve softened on Whitford over the past few months because I thought he had grown emotionally after the ZH tragedy but his in game gaffes and this exile bullshit is pushing me back towards the dark side. 🤯🤬 It is a mystery. Players and coaches say his shooting woes are similar to Teague, more mental, feeling the pressure and trying too hard. That could change. I'd like to see it. Apart from that? I get significantly reduced PT. Some is surely a credit to Josh who can provide much better on ball defense. And some of it is no doubt that we need ball handling, not Francis' strong point when it comes to using the ball screen. Neither of these things can change much. We are committed to the big lineup, where his best use is to replace Sellers, who has been playing well. Francis is not a good replacement for Persons, just can't have the ball in his hands all that much. But even after looking at all that, it is still a mystery. Davis I understood Whitford's stance, he refused to and probably was unable to play the way we needed him to play, but there was resentment about his being removed for that problem. Francis, I have a harder time seeing as unwilling to give his best effort. He has been such a good part of the team the first 3 years, good defender generally, and hit big baskets from outside, even improved a bit on the drive. I agree, you hate to see him not be recognized.
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Post by cardfan on Feb 24, 2018 10:29:11 GMT -6
All good points Hoop.
On one rebound basket by wmu, Mallers was very clearly pushed to the floor from behind as he was getting ready to grab the board. How in the hell does that not get called? And yes there were several whistles blown after the ball fell off the rim. He missed the shot? Musta been a foul then....
Another bone to pick. Sellers gets hot. Then we go completely away from him for long stretches. Why?
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Post by 00hmh on Feb 24, 2018 10:34:14 GMT -6
After time to unwind from the game and sleep off its sour result, these are the most common themes and takes on the defeat. Despite a couple of things already addressed that I'll get to shortly, I didn't think we played all that badly. We had command of the game for 30 minutes, were holding down Wilder and it got away at the end..... Sorry coach Whitford, I've vouched for you a lot, but you pulled Moses down the stretch when he still had 4 or 5 fouls to give, and WMU promptly scored twice inside to get close and tie. Plus Hawkins managed to rest his best player for a long stretch with him struggling and 3 fouls, and get the lead then. When he came back in I figured he'd have his way with us. Several people have brought up Kiapway not starting and getting no minutes, and the starting part seems overrated to me at the D1 level, and its understandable that a scholarship player would turn down token minutes, as in the case of Davis. That said, I would've liked to see him on the floor for a few minutes. I think he's a battler and a defender, even if he's turned into Steve Sax with his shot. I wondered about pulling Moses, almost as if he had been injured or was gassed, but I did not see evidence of either of those things. They were playing their big guy out away from the basket, using him to screen Persons, and I suppose Teague was better out there on defense and also could get back to the boards better from there. This would not have been so critical but their guards were hitting the 3 off that screen, and getting a step to the basket. And whatever was going on with Trey passing, he just was making too many mistakes.
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Post by 00hmh on Feb 24, 2018 10:39:16 GMT -6
All good points Hoop. On one rebound basket by wmu, Mallers was very clearly pushed to the floor from behind as he was getting ready to grab the board. How in the hell does that not get called? And yes there were several whistles blown after the ball fell off the rim. He missed the shot? Musta been a foul then.... Mallers was creamed. And, in the melee on rebounds we were getting mugged a little. A lot of those fouls where we were defending could have been no calls. If we had been getting the same break on the other end, and were getting some benefits from close calls of another type, I would not have had much complaint.
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Post by 00hmh on Feb 24, 2018 10:47:40 GMT -6
One more thing I know we have to play him some but Dang Gunn is lost out there Exactly! = 6 bench points total!! The bench production is a huge problem, we have no offensive spark off the bench. Ish has to come in and produce some play making, get to the basket. Of course Persons wasn't doing all that much of it either. And Ish had a nice open shot from 3 on a Persons drive and dish which went in and came back out. That was when every possession counted... Gunn I didn't see as much to complain about. He made fewer errors than earlier in the year, and played reasonably well inside. He scored on several good plays. His defense has to improve, but not a bad job fighting in there against bigger players.
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Post by Hoopsmith on Feb 24, 2018 10:48:32 GMT -6
All good points Hoop. On one rebound basket by wmu, Mallers was very clearly pushed to the floor from behind as he was getting ready to grab the board. How in the hell does that not get called? And yes there were several whistles blown after the ball fell off the rim. He missed the shot? Musta been a foul then.... Mallers was creamed. And, in the melee on rebounds we were getting mugged a little. A lot of those fouls where we were defending could have been no calls. If we had been getting the same break on the other end, and were getting some benefits from close calls of another type, I would not have had much complaint. As soon as we hit the second half bonus with something like 10-11 minutes left, the one that had Hawkins gesturing "five in a row" to the officials going into a time out, I turned to the person beside me and said, "they are going to even out these cheap calls down the stretch, just you wait." It's like clockwork sometimes
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Post by proctorp on Feb 24, 2018 10:49:20 GMT -6
As usual, Reality, Hoopsmith, Cardfan, etc.. have nailed the post-game synopsis. There was a lot wrong with the stretch run last night. The most baffling coaching was the benching of Trey. Hawkins capitalized on that by going two consecutive trips with scores inside. I get the fact you need to save guys fouls, but Trey was not in jeopardy at that point of the game. We need him inside come hell or high water. The other point of the stretch is the fact that we are still going to Persons as the creator. EVERYBODY in the MAC knows this, why not go with the hot hand---Teague? And why didn't we foul earlier than we did?
As to Kip not seeing the court? Totally do not get it. Person looked exhausted(as did Mallers and Sellers) and yet the fresh-legged Francis is on the bench? Really feel for the kid not seeing action.
This team needs to stay off its feet between now and Tuesday. As a group they collectively look tired. Examine the film and shoot foul shots but..... We need to win Tuesday and we need some help to keep the #3 seed.
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Post by 00hmh on Feb 24, 2018 10:52:53 GMT -6
And I still don’t understand the Kiapway mothball situation. Hell, who needs to play a senior, veteran, heavily experienced guard on senior night while the couple of guards we do have are sucking wind or are out of their league?!? Both Ish and Josh have played well in other games, but this game was not a prize for either. Nor was Persons very good. Our guard play and perimeter play was where we lost the game. Western brought in firepower from the bench, we had no such needed lift and our guards were just outclassed. Sellers hit some shots, but then took that one rather hurried shot in the meltdown at the end. Wish very much we'd had Walker or Tyler in this game to come in off the bench.
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Post by 00hmh on Feb 24, 2018 11:00:07 GMT -6
Mallers was creamed. And, in the melee on rebounds we were getting mugged a little. A lot of those fouls where we were defending could have been no calls. If we had been getting the same break on the other end, and were getting some benefits from close calls of another type, I would not have had much complaint. As soon as we hit the second half bonus with something like 10-11 minutes left, the one that had Hawkins gesturing "five in a row" to the officials going into a time out, I turned to the person beside me and said, "they are going to even out these cheap calls down the stretch, just you wait." It's like clockwork sometimes Hawkins may have worked the refs, but they had throughout the game allowed some things that hurt us, they were not just maybe calling a few cheap fouls on us to make up. Maybe they were just too conscious we had a big crowd and overcompensated calling them close on us? But before they worry about that they have to call them close in all areas at both ends. Not allow physical play one type of play and then call fouls on very slight contact on the shot. Teague's block was probably a foul, Mallers too, but there were several tips and very slight contact where it was a better no call.
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Post by cardfan on Feb 24, 2018 11:38:45 GMT -6
Mallers was creamed. And, in the melee on rebounds we were getting mugged a little. A lot of those fouls where we were defending could have been no calls. If we had been getting the same break on the other end, and were getting some benefits from close calls of another type, I would not have had much complaint. As soon as we hit the second half bonus with something like 10-11 minutes left, the one that had Hawkins gesturing "five in a row" to the officials going into a time out, I turned to the person beside me and said, "they are going to even out these cheap calls down the stretch, just you wait." It's like clockwork sometimes Saw the same thing. And yep, suddenly everything we did was a foul and when we got hit going to the basket it wasn’t a foul.
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Post by reevo on Feb 24, 2018 12:33:48 GMT -6
Watching the game on TV I have a different perspective. Mallers definitely fouled the shooter on the 3 as he hit the dude on the arm. Definite foul. The problem I have been saying for years is we can’t play physical. Western is thuggish but I like that mentality. If the officials are going to allow it, you have to hit them in the mouth and we don’t do it. Whitford wines as much as any coach in the conference. Did anyone see the timeout where Persons got in Trey’s face and told him to quit being a pussy. I love that from our leader but he is it in terms of punching back. I am not sure we can win games when the officiating allows pushing and shoving. We melt!’
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