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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 20:32:05 GMT -6
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Post by JacksonStreetElite on Aug 2, 2018 6:37:36 GMT -6
I don't get it. Is he accused of covering this up or just aware it was happening without going to the police? The Paterno situation involved children. I'm totally on board with punishing looking the other way in the assault of children. Not sticking your nose into the marriage of two grown adults I view differently. If the wife was being abused and he knew about it then morally he probably should have gotten involved, but to punish him for not getting involved is to infantilize the wife. It looks like the guy was fired after the wife took legal action, which seems appropriate.
Every head coach should make sure that their staff isn't assaulting children. But every head coach should not have to be marriage counselor to each staff member.
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Post by cardfan on Aug 2, 2018 6:55:24 GMT -6
It’s not about “getting involved” or being a marriage counselor, it’s law that he has to report it if he knew about it. Smith was an employee of his. Title 9. (And he and his wife did get involved when it first happened in 2009, because they were close friends)
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Post by JacksonStreetElite on Aug 2, 2018 7:16:39 GMT -6
Thanks for the clarification. In that case I think it's a stupid law. She's a grown woman. If Urban knew about violence he should have acted and is morally culpable. But it shouldn't be a legal requirement for him to meddle with their marriage.
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Post by cardfan on Aug 2, 2018 7:29:03 GMT -6
Agree to disagree. As a supervisor I’m culpable for not reporting any behavior that’s been reported to me, such as domestic violence, if it’s being committed by an employee in my charge. If I then lie about knowing, like Meyer may have, it just compounds it.
Not everyone sees stepping up to prevent a woman being battered as “meddling in a marriage.” “I didn’t want to get involved” has resulted in a lot of bad situations getting worse. The law serves to hopefully prevent that.
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Post by JacksonStreetElite on Aug 2, 2018 7:53:14 GMT -6
Agree to disagree. As a supervisor I’m culpable for not reporting any behavior that’s been reported to me, such as domestic violence, if it’s being committed by an employee in my charge. If I then lie about knowing, like Meyer may have, it just compounds it. Not everyone sees stepping up to prevent a woman being battered as “meddling in a marriage.” “I didn’t want to get involved” has resulted in a lot of bad situations getting worse. The law serves to hopefully prevent that. Before I agree that we disagree, let me confirm I understand.
Situation: You hear a rumor that your employee, Joe, is abusive to his wife, Jane. You believe that you should be legally obligated to report that and punished if you fail to report it? (report to who by the way - your superior or the police?)
I'm 100% on board with you calling the cops if you know Joe beat Jane up. I'd probably think you were a douche if you didn't (but I'd listen to the facts before deciding). My position is that you shouldn't face any LEGAL sanctions for not calling the cops. You should not be subject to punishment for something Joe (an adult) did and something Jane (an adult) apparently did not take any action to remedy. Is that what you disagree with?
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Post by cardfan on Aug 2, 2018 8:35:55 GMT -6
If you knowingly ignored or failed to report information (to your superiors)that was reported to you regarding one of your staff then yes I think you should be punished. You don’t think knowingly enabling something like domestic violence committed by an employee doesn’t warrant some kind of punishment? Why bear the brunt of any fallout? Why risk someone being seriously hurt by someone you supervise or employ? Just report it and let them investigate. I don’t think we should just say, eh, not my problem. The law exists to protect people and organizations from harmful activity by employees. Seems to me the victim was asking for help, and had called the police. Even got a restraining order. If Meyer knew it was going on prior to the guy being fired and did nothing then yeah, that’s an issue.
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Post by 00hmh on Aug 2, 2018 9:13:12 GMT -6
Thanks for the clarification. In that case I think it's a stupid law. She's a grown woman. If Urban knew about violence he should have acted and is morally culpable. But it shouldn't be a legal requirement for him to meddle with their marriage. That's not "meddling in their marriage" it's a case where you are morally culpable for failing to act, taking a big risk of allowing a "grown woman" from being harmed. Law or not you should act. Beating your wife is not a marital privilege. Law should protect weaker individuals from abuse.
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Post by JacksonStreetElite on Aug 2, 2018 9:37:24 GMT -6
Now that I understand we can agree to disagree. You don’t think knowingly enabling something like domestic violence committed by an employee doesn’t warrant some kind of punishment? I'd disagree that failing to report equals enabling it. But otherwise, no I don't think failing to report something warrants legally sanctioned punishment.
First - it's a substitution of preferences. It puts the lawmakers' preferences ahead of the individual's. Joe is a dick for being abusive, but if Jane's preference is to stay it's nobody else's decision. When we're talking about differences of degree it's especially critical not to uniformly apply third-party preferences. This is insanely fact sensitive and abuse is an insanely broad term. Like it or not, a woman who stay's in a relationship is expressing her preference and is entitled to do that as an adult. Third-parties should get involved and offer help if it's warranted, but third parties should have no legal obligation to involve themselves.
Second - Where is the line for legal culpability? If you hear your employee was passive aggressive? If you see him call her a bitch? If you hear that two years ago he threw something in anger and it hit her even though he wasn't trying to throw it at her? If she tells you he bumped into her on purpose? If you hear he grabbed her arm? Maybe this is spelled out in the law, but it seems like a nightmare to me to try to figure out where to draw the line.
Third - it's a question of who is best situated to prevent the injury. If an employee steals from her employer by signing fraudulent checks and the employer sues the bank for accepting the checks, it will generally lose. The reason is the employer was in a better position to catch the fraud than the bank. The domestic abuse victim is in the best position to report the abuse. Proposing to punish the victim for failing to report would obviously be absurd. So I think it's even more absurd to punish a third party in a worse position to actually know what happened.
Why bear the brunt of any fallout? Why risk someone being seriously hurt by someone you supervise or employ? Just report it and let them investigate. I don’t think we should just say, eh, not my problem. If you think I'm saying it's ok to say "eh, not my problem" then you're misunderstanding me. I've tried to make it very clear that I don't think that:
First post: "If the wife was being abused and he knew about it then morally he probably should have gotten involved" Second post: "If Urban knew about violence he should have acted and is morally culpable." Third post: "I'm 100% on board with you calling the cops if you know Joe beat Jane up. I'd probably think you were a douche if you didn't (but I'd listen to the facts before deciding)."
I'm not opposed to reporting it. I'm only opposed to punishing for failing to report it. I'm only distinguishing moral and legal culpability.
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Post by cardfan on Aug 2, 2018 9:55:54 GMT -6
Here's another side of it: Let's say I knew my employee was up to shady stuff. Let's say there's no law requiring I report it to my superiors. That employee then does something really horrific after I did nothing because I wasn't required to and there were no repercussions for me/my organization. You don't think there would be lawsuits from hell against me/my organization because I did nothing because there were no reprecussions for doing nothing about my employee?
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Post by JacksonStreetElite on Aug 2, 2018 9:58:38 GMT -6
Here's another side of it: Let's say I knew my employee was up to shady stuff. Let's say there's no law requiring I report it to my superiors. That employee then does something really horrific after I did nothing because I wasn't required to and there were no repercussions for me/my organization. You don't think there would be lawsuits from hell against me/my organization because I did nothing because there were no reprecussions for doing nothing about my employee? Well anyone can sue anyone else for anything, but if you had no duty to report it what is the basis for the suit? Negligence requires a duty.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 10:23:42 GMT -6
Thanks for the clarification. In that case I think it's a stupid law. She's a grown woman. If Urban knew about violence he should have acted and is morally culpable. But it shouldn't be a legal requirement for him to meddle with their marriage. In Meyer's case, his contract with OSU explicitly states that he must report any known acts of sexual harrassment, sexual assault, etc. involving any member of the football program staff. He accepted and signed the contract, and is now obliged to report such incidents. Now, what's in question is whether Meyer knew about the incident from 2015. According to him, he knew nothing. In 2009, Jake Smith shoved his pregnant wife, Courtney Smith. Meyer and his wife got involved and helped them get counseling. The 2015 incident involved Jake Smith physically assaulting his wife. Courtney Smith says that she talked on numerous occasions to Meyer's wife about the incident, and others that had transpired. Meyer claims to not know of this incident, and others. I have a hard time believing that his wife would not be talking to him about it, since Jake Smith is on his staff.
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Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Aug 2, 2018 10:25:20 GMT -6
It's not my job to report rumors. How do I KNOW what's fact and what may be made up by a pissed-off spouse?
This Title IX crap is out of control.
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Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Aug 2, 2018 10:28:05 GMT -6
Meyer claims to not know of this incident, and others. I have a hard time believing that his wife would not be talking to him about it, since Jake Smith is on his staff. I believe that's not only possible, but very likely Meyer's wife didn't tell him about it. She knew if she did, Jake Smith would likely lose his job.
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Post by Bigfoot on Aug 2, 2018 14:35:24 GMT -6
Meyer claims to not know of this incident, and others. I have a hard time believing that his wife would not be talking to him about it, since Jake Smith is on his staff. I believe that's not only possible, but very likely Meyer's wife didn't tell him about it. She knew if she did, Jake Smith would likely lose his job. Exactly right and why didn’t this spouse “bite the bullet” and get a divorce or at a minimum call police if bodily harm or she felt life was endangered. I see a “deep pockets” scenario and a woman knowingly taking action to tarnish Coach Meyer! Just my opinion from what is reported so far.
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