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Scum
Aug 26, 2020 13:58:29 GMT -6
Post by villagepub on Aug 26, 2020 13:58:29 GMT -6
Soooo, why isn't the ATF revoking FFL licenses of the sellers in Indiana. The guns are traceable, not only by serial #, but also by rifling marks (in most cases). Why isn't the ATF cracking down in Indiana if it is such a rampant issue to Chicago?
The licensed dealer can make legal sales to Indiana citizens. Indiana’s laws allow that owner to sell to other people without background checks or paperwork recording the sale. If I sell to you and you go to Chicago with that weapon and a truck load of others it may be illegal but tracing doesn't help and cracking down on Indiana sellers doesn't help. Authorities have a very hard time enforcing any transport laws. The only law being broken might be the sale in Chicago. And you can bet that isn't a licensed dealer.
It is not just Indiana's fault. I didn't really mean to say that, but it is a problem. Local gun laws in Chicago or anywhere else will fail at some point if there is a big supply of high priced product that is under demand in another state without strict limitations. It's the lowest common denominator of regulation followed to produce an inventory for illegal sales. Chicago authorities claim 60 percent of illegal guns recovered in the city from 2009 to 2013 were first sold in states with more lax gun laws. Legal sales there. The largest portion came from Indiana, which accounted for 19 percent of the illegal guns in Chicago.
This sounds much more like a demand issue, and not a supply issue. Why is there so much demand? These are inanimate objects. They do not go out and wreak havoc on their own. |
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Scum
Aug 26, 2020 14:50:55 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by rmcalhoun on Aug 26, 2020 14:50:55 GMT -6
The demand is from people like my friend group. 30-50 year old parents who have never had a gun but now feel like one is needed. Just had this condo while sitting around a campfire.. Multiple dads talking about handguns ars and biometric safes. Most have bought a couple handguns and a rifle. They said getting into a gun class right now is about a 2 month wait
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Scum
Aug 26, 2020 14:52:46 GMT -6
Post by JacksonStreetElite on Aug 26, 2020 14:52:46 GMT -6
Vox cracks me up. "Video of the incident shows a man, alleged to be Rittenhouse, running down the street with an AR-15-style rifle as he’s pursued by others attempting to apprehend him. Rittenhouse falls to the ground, then proceeds to turn around and begin shooting at the people trying to disarm him." www.vox.com/2020/8/26/21402951/kyle-rittenhouse-jacob-blake-kenoshaYes, I'm sure they just wanted to "apprehend" and "disarm" him. |
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Scum
Aug 26, 2020 15:18:41 GMT -6
Post by villagepub on Aug 26, 2020 15:18:41 GMT -6
The demand is from people like my friend group. 30-50 year old parents who have never had a gun but now feel like one is needed. Just had this condo while sitting around a campfire.. Multiple dads talking about handguns ars and biometric safes. Most have bought a couple handguns and a rifle. They said getting into a gun class right now is about a 2 month wait But your friend group sounds like the type of buyers who would buy "legally", go through background checks, etc. They do not sound like the type that buys illegally by coming across state lines and circumventing the laws of both Indiana and Illinois. I want to know what drives the demand of the folks that are supposedly buying illegally in Indiana that live in Chicago. |
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Scum
Aug 26, 2020 16:12:39 GMT -6
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Post by 00hmh on Aug 26, 2020 16:12:39 GMT -6
The sales in Indiana exceeded demand in Indiana.
Confiscated guns were not taken to Chicago by Rob's friends 10 years ago and then sold to criminals.
The Chicago money served to give incentive to buy in Indiana and transport to Chicago for profit. Good profit for the trafficers.
What created that demand could be looked at as bad Chicago regulation. Make it easier to buy in Chicago will give more good guys easy guns, reduce demand for Indiana guns.
IF we regulate it probably has to be uniform at whatever level we think is the right level. We aren't doing it right now.
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Scum
Aug 26, 2020 16:44:00 GMT -6
Post by villagepub on Aug 26, 2020 16:44:00 GMT -6
The sales in Indiana exceeded demand in Indiana. Confiscated guns were not taken to Chicago by Rob's friends 10 years ago and then sold to criminals. The Chicago money served to give incentive to buy in Indiana and transport to Chicago for profit. Good profit for the trafficers. What created that demand could be looked at as bad Chicago regulation. Make it easier to buy in Chicago will give more good guys easy guns, reduce demand for Indiana guns. IF we regulate it probably has to be uniform at whatever level we think is the right level. We aren't doing it right now. Haven't answered why they are buying guns illegally. What's the reason? |
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Scum
Aug 26, 2020 17:10:34 GMT -6
Post by 00hmh on Aug 26, 2020 17:10:34 GMT -6
The sales in Indiana exceeded demand in Indiana. Confiscated guns were not taken to Chicago by Rob's friends 10 years ago and then sold to criminals. The Chicago money served to give incentive to buy in Indiana and transport to Chicago for profit. Good profit for the trafficers. What created that demand could be looked at as bad Chicago regulation. Make it easier to buy in Chicago will give more good guys easy guns, reduce demand for Indiana guns. IF we regulate it probably has to be uniform at whatever level we think is the right level. We aren't doing it right now. Haven't answered why they are buying guns illegally. What's the reason? Good guys are buying some guns, no doubt not intending ill. Bad guys are buying guns to be bad guys. We can try to reduce both sides and with better regulation make sure not so many bad guys can easily do it without restricting use for defense.
Registry and tracing of guns would help. Creating some liability when you own a weapon and let it move on to somebody else would help. Transferring the weapon or being careless in ownership is not necessary for self defense...
Some object to limiting sales and limiting the number of guns of some types that anyone can buy or own which to me seems reasonable regulation. But doing that allows possession for defense or sport in reasonable way. Somebody will disagree with me, but does the good guy like Rob ever need 25 handguns? OK, supposing he does, maybe he just needs to report and register the 25 and be responsible they stay in his possession. Liable for not safeguarding them and using them safely.
Civil and criminal liability could be parallel to 1st Amendment rights. No prior restraint in most cases, but liability if the speech creates harm. Can free thought and free speech be less protected than gun ownership? That is not a reasonable interpretation.
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Scum
Aug 26, 2020 17:42:58 GMT -6
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Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Aug 26, 2020 17:42:58 GMT -6
Curious about why you want to reduce the number of good guys buying guns.
A gun registry is a non-starter with 2A types.
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Scum
Aug 26, 2020 18:26:58 GMT -6
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Post by 00hmh on Aug 26, 2020 18:26:58 GMT -6
Curious about why you want to reduce the number of good guys buying guns. A gun registry is a non-starter with 2A types. I don't. But neither will I assume every good guy deserves as many guns of whatever type he wants and no responsibility for them. This may be an issue 2A guys could compromise on? Why should they think everyone who wants a gun is a good guy? There is room for being reasonable here |
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Scum
Aug 26, 2020 19:07:26 GMT -6
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Post by 00hmh on Aug 26, 2020 19:07:26 GMT -6
The private citizens showing up armed to protect Kenosha from violence seems to me to support my idea that using trained armed police is better when possible. And that sometimes letting protest go is good law enforcement considering all options.
No easy answers.
The guy shot seven times for running away, after doing nothing, but possibly having a knife is an argument for better training of police if not other reforms.
No easy answer there.
To not expect demonstrations is unreasonable. But it is asking for trouble. How do you avoid it? Very strict police response is not without a downside.
No easy answer.
Let's not pretend it's simple law and order.
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Scum
Aug 26, 2020 19:43:59 GMT -6
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Post by JacksonStreetElite on Aug 26, 2020 19:43:59 GMT -6
Curious about why you want to reduce the number of good guys buying guns. A gun registry is a non-starter with 2A types. Did he ever answer the question? Whenever he successfully dodges a point blank question I just picture him dancing away like Joaquin Phoenix in the Joker. |
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Scum
Aug 26, 2020 20:14:11 GMT -6
Post by 00hmh on Aug 26, 2020 20:14:11 GMT -6
Curious about why you want to reduce the number of good guys buying guns. A gun registry is a non-starter with 2A types. Did he ever answer the question? Whenever he successfully dodges a point blank question I just picture him dancing away like Joaquin Phoenix in the Joker. I answered. I don't.
I do believe good guys who want guns for a right of self defense and for purposes of a well regulated militia could be subject to reasonable regulation, for example be required to register their weapon, be responsible for it, be careful with it, and track it's sale without interference with those rights.
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Scum
Aug 26, 2020 20:50:25 GMT -6
Post by williamtsherman on Aug 26, 2020 20:50:25 GMT -6
"The guy shot seven times for running away, after doing nothing, but possibly having a knife is an argument for better training of police if not other reforms."
"Doing nothing"
No nothing. nothing at all.
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Scum
Aug 26, 2020 20:53:37 GMT -6
Post by rmcalhoun on Aug 26, 2020 20:53:37 GMT -6
Not One person I know would have a problem registering a gun. What Ish did over the summer was great a huge turnout of people who marched said what they needed and wanted to say then went home. Police marched with them as did the BSU pres and many others it was powerful and problem free.
The shit in Portland, Kenosha, Minneapolis etc etc.. Is not fine and if the local authorities had never let them spiral out of control things might have been different. So know we have jackass rioters being met by jackass militia but everyone had to be able to see this coming. People are only going to sit back for so long before they fight back. You cant have anarchy in the streets and you cant have militia acting like Rambo. The blame has to be put on the people who let it happen
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Scum
Aug 26, 2020 21:28:20 GMT -6
Post by williamtsherman on Aug 26, 2020 21:28:20 GMT -6
People have become spoiled and soft-thinking through the incredible productivity and affluence we live in. Some segments have come to believe they can advance their particular interests through this "novel" tactic of violence and destruction, and other groups will show forbearance and tolerance of that behavior indefinitely. They should have cracked a history book. Those committing the violence and destruction now may find that their currently passive victims are actually quite good at violence and destruction themselves, when they want to be. If this country becomes Yugoslavia, I know who my money is on....and it's not those currently acting out.
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