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Post by williamtsherman on Mar 11, 2024 11:45:49 GMT -6
I have long accused Buckley of selling out the program by allowing the administration to emasculate recruiting without standing up to that effort. At the time, he had a strong fanbase used to winning that could have been mobilized. Instead he allowed the admin to throttle his recruiting without having to take public responsibility for it. This was not a group of people with strong character and I think they would have quickly backed down in the face of any opposition...but they never had to face it, thanks to Buckley's lack of fuss. As I always say, Buckley traded the health of the program for job security....and got neither. This was a key moment...maybe THE key moment...in the degradation of the program.
With this in mind, I would want Lewis to call out any self-imposed disadvantages the program has. Even if they are not technically within his purview.
This discussion has thus far been based on a few vague remarks over 45 seconds of a post-game press conference (and one with extremely poor sound quality, by the way) so who knows what he is really saying or what he intends to do. He may be trying to do something important that really needs doing, or he may just be whining. I don't know. Of course Lewis now has a fanbase of around 17 people who can't even remember what a good team looks like (or remember all the names of their grandkids). But you have to start somewhere.
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Post by david75bsu on Mar 11, 2024 13:42:17 GMT -6
I don't think anything has been consistent for 25 years. Wrong. Ball State basketball has been VERY consistent. So wrong. In fact, from 1980-2000 the Cardinals ruled the MAC. WE STILL HOLD THE RECORD FOR MOST CONFERENCE TOURNMENT WINS! So far however, this century has been a disaster! NIL makes resolution very difficult. Only time will tell if Lewis and the University can overcome the issues we face. Meanwhile we will play in an oversized arena that will be 1/4 full. Sad! |
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Post by williamtsherman on Mar 11, 2024 14:53:51 GMT -6
Wrong. Ball State basketball has been VERY consistent. So wrong. In fact, from 1980-2000 the Cardinals ruled the MAC. WE STILL HOLD THE RECORD FOR MOST CONFERENCE TOURNMENT WINS! So far however, this century has been a disaster! NIL makes resolution very difficult. Only time will tell if Lewis and the University can overcome the issues we face. Meanwhile we will play in an oversized arena that will be 1/4 full. Sad! I meant consistent since 2000 |
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Post by 00hmh on Mar 11, 2024 15:31:36 GMT -6
So wrong. In fact, from 1980-2000 the Cardinals ruled the MAC. WE STILL HOLD THE RECORD FOR MOST CONFERENCE TOURNMENT WINS! So far however, this century has been a disaster! NIL makes resolution very difficult. Only time will tell if Lewis and the since University can overcome the issues we face. Meanwhile we will play in an oversized arena that will be 1/4 full. Sad! I meant consistent since 2000 It remains that your theory that things have been the same would be a bit hard to back up.
Since 2000 BSU has gone through a great deal of change related to demographics of the student population, ICHE requirements for academics, budget, JoAnn as a change agent, turnover and change of administrators at every level, statehouse imperatives. Those working here would not agree very much has remained consistent over the last 24 years.
In athletics we have had all of that have an impact. VERY notably in terms of perhaps the single worst coaching hire in MAC history...
BTW I agree that Buckley faced some of the greatest problems with change, but would add he was not at all the guy who could have ever been expected to navigate the changing environment. We needed a change, and boy did we get one.
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Post by williamtsherman on Mar 11, 2024 16:55:25 GMT -6
But all these factors just prove how impressive BSU Basketball's unwavering pursuit of failure has been this century. All of these things COULD have shaken BSU basketball from its path, but none did. Never once winning a MAC championship. Never once making the final. Never once seriously contending for thar tourney berth in 24 years. THAT, my friend, is consistency. Amazing, improbable consistency. And it should be appreciated.
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Post by prestonp on Mar 11, 2024 17:52:03 GMT -6
I have long accused Buckley of selling out the program by allowing the administration to emasculate recruiting without standing up to that effort. At the time, he had a strong fanbase used to winning that could have been mobilized. Instead he allowed the admin to throttle his recruiting without having to take public responsibility for it. This was not a group of people with strong character and I think they would have quickly backed down in the face of any opposition...but they never had to face it, thanks to Buckley's lack of fuss. As I always say, Buckley traded the health of the program for job security....and got neither. This was a key moment...maybe THE key moment...in the degradation of the program. With this in mind, I would want Lewis to call out any self-imposed disadvantages the program has. Even if they are not technically within his purview. This discussion has thus far been based on a few vague remarks over 45 seconds of a post-game press conference (and one with extremely poor sound quality, by the way) so who knows what he is really saying or what he intends to do. He may be trying to do something important that really needs doing, or he may just be whining. I don't know. Of course Lewis now has a fanbase of around 17 people who can't even remember what a good team looks like (or remember all the names of their grandkids). But you have to start somewhere. True, Buckley should have called out the damper on recruiting publicly , but the MAIN culprits to our decline IMO was Joanne and Bud Gora. Not only did they emasculate Buckley but the program in general. Look at the coaches they brought in and you get why we suck. |
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Post by 00hmh on Mar 11, 2024 18:44:17 GMT -6
I have long accused Buckley of selling out the program by allowing the administration to emasculate recruiting without standing up to that effort. At the time, he had a strong fanbase used to winning that could have been mobilized. Instead he allowed the admin to throttle his recruiting without having to take public responsibility for it. This was not a group of people with strong character and I think they would have quickly backed down in the face of any opposition...but they never had to face it, thanks to Buckley's lack of fuss. As I always say, Buckley traded the health of the program for job security....and got neither. This was a key moment...maybe THE key moment...in the degradation of the program. With this in mind, I would want Lewis to call out any self-imposed disadvantages the program has. Even if they are not technically within his purview. This discussion has thus far been based on a few vague remarks over 45 seconds of a post-game press conference (and one with extremely poor sound quality, by the way) so who knows what he is really saying or what he intends to do. He may be trying to do something important that really needs doing, or he may just be whining. I don't know. Of course Lewis now has a fanbase of around 17 people who can't even remember what a good team looks like (or remember all the names of their grandkids). But you have to start somewhere. True, Buckley should have called out the damper on recruiting publicly , but the MAIN culprits to our decline IMO was Joanne and Bud Gora. Not only did they emasculate Buckley but the program in general. Look at the coaches they brought in and you get why we suck. Fans were frustrated, wanted Buckley to go, they had expected, as had administrators that he continue winning tradition even if he did not have the increased resources that would be required.
He definitely had some gripes that were legit, handled it poorly though. He had to do some things differently he wanted not to. That was the time when changes with the NCAA, changes in academics and other things required those change, and he could not navigate that. The AD had no choice on some things. Not exactly a diplomat, he had created too much friction with administration, it was never going to work...
There was pretty good consensus he had to go. It was almost part of the job description with the new AD search. Not all that was fair to Buckley, I'd agree.
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Post by lmills72 on Mar 11, 2024 22:09:56 GMT -6
The think that struck me about that presser was when Lewis said he screwed up in letting himself devote too much time to some of these fringe issues that didn't directly relate to the job of coaching his team.
I thought that rang true as much as any other issue this season, such as talent or depth deficiencies.
The team proved that it was capable of playing the conference's best toe-to-toe, but too many times (especially at home) they just didn't seem prepared.
As for why we've had so many basketball coaches in the past 25 years, certainly you could make the argument that none of those hired were that good. And while you could argue that they were limited by some as-yet-unrevealed factors that exist at BSU, it's not like those coaches left BSU and suddenly became great coaches with all kinds of success. Rather, they've just kind of continued to be the level of coach they were here, or worse.
I think it's also worth nothing that consistency and long tenure hasn't been a quality of our administrators. We've probably had more people in both the president and AD roles in the past 25 years than we have had basketball coaches.
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Post by mattg on Mar 12, 2024 8:36:19 GMT -6
Interesting points made here. We haven’t had a coach leave us for a different job willingly in a long time. They’ve all been dismissed ultimately for lack of success. I wonder which school currently has the record for most consecutive coaches fired?
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Post by realitycheck on Mar 12, 2024 10:06:04 GMT -6
Two thoughts to add to this discussion. Since Ray Mac left, how many of our previous coaches have gone on to bigger and better opportunities? 1.) Buckley (fired) was an assistant for Crean plus stops at UNLV and now South Carolina. 2.) Thompson (fired), is a part-time TV analyst in addition to his full-time gig as a race-baiting a**hole. 3.) Billy Taylor (fired) was an assistant at Iowa before landing as the current head coach at Elon in 2022. (21-45 in two seasons  ). 4.) Whitford (fired) apparently is a full-time house Dad and a Sherpa in Nepal as far as we know. Point being, McCallum was the last coach to leave BSU of his own volition and move up (Houston). He lasted 4 years there and then stops at Oklahoma and IU as an assistant before one more shot as a HC at Detroit for 8 years. Since then he has been an assistant at Tulane for the past 5 years. Needless to say that BSU Basketball is not exactly the cradle of coaches. Point two is the difference between wanting to build a successful program and committing to it. When Majerus was hired we made a commitment at the time to go Big (literally and figuratively) and to "soften" our policies to mirror what other successful programs were doing. It lasted about a decade and resulted in the Golden Age of BSU Men's Hoops. When Ray left we made a decision to return to our previous M.O. and 25 years later we see the results. Who we hire as a coach certainly matters and I thought Lewis was the guy and maybe he still is but if he gets to wear the same pair of handcuffs everyone else has worn then we are crippling our own success. I honestly don't know if Akron, Kent, Toledo and Ohio have significantly more funds or resources than we do but they certainly have had more sustainable success than us and have dominated us for the better part of a decade or more. That feels like more than just a bad hire on our part. It feels like institutional acceptance of being satisfied with "competitive" versus "championship". To be clear, I am not interested in excuses from our coach but I do believe that when an organization decides they are ready to commit and invest in doing whatever it takes to claim the prize, it doesn't take 25 years to achieve the goal. |
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Post by cardfan on Mar 12, 2024 10:12:55 GMT -6
Two thoughts to add to this discussion. Since Ray Mac left, how many of our previous coaches have gone on to bigger and better opportunities? 1.) Buckley (fired) was an assistant for Crean plus stops at UNLV and now South Carolina. 2.) Thompson (fired), is a part-time TV analyst in addition to his full-time gig as a race-baiting a**hole. 3.) Billy Taylor (fired) was an assistant at Iowa before landing as the current head coach at Elon in 2022. (21-45 in two seasons ). 4.) Whitford (fired) apparently is a full-time house Dad and a Sherpa in Nepal as far as we know. Point being, McCallum was the last coach to leave BSU of his own volition and move up (Houston). He lasted 4 years there and then stops at Oklahoma and IU as an assistant before one more shot as a HC at Detroit for 8 years. Since then he has been an assistant at Tulane for the past 5 years. Needless to say that BSU Basketball is not exactly the cradle of coaches. Point two is the difference between wanting to build a successful program and committing to it. When Majerus was hired we made a commitment at the time to go Big (literally and figuratively) and to "soften" our policies to mirror what other successful programs were doing. It lasted about a decade and resulted in the Golden Age of BSU Men's Hoops. When Ray left we made a decision to return to our previous M.O. and 25 years later we see the results. Who we hire as a coach certainly matters and I thought Lewis was the guy and maybe he still is but if he gets to wear the same pair of handcuffs everyone else has worn then we are crippling our own success. I honestly don't know if Akron, Kent, Toledo and Ohio have significantly more funds or resources than we do but they certainly have had more sustainable success than us and have dominated us for the better part of a decade or more. That feels like more than just a bad hire on our part. It feels like institutional acceptance of being satisfied with "competitive" versus "championship". To be clear, I am not interested in excuses from our coach but I do believe that when an organization decides they are ready to commit and invest in doing whatever it takes to claim the prize, it doesn't take 25 years to achieve the goal. Right on. |
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Post by 00hmh on Mar 12, 2024 10:44:43 GMT -6
RC, loved your description of Ronnie's career...
I think we dropped any commitment to go big long before Ray left. Maybe as early as when we hired him
Administration consistently were unwilling to pay top of the MAC coaching prospects.
Ray was hired on the cheap and we lucked out. It didn't get better as Ray had success. The administration, somewhat drunk with success, decided anybody could coach and win at BSU.
Ray was shortchanged, driven away almost as much as moving up, Buckley was less than an upgrade. After Ronnie we couldn't find a high quality coach even at an upgrade salary interested in taking on a dumpster fire.
Whit was a middle to low priced choice as well...especially the cost to retain him.
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Post by williamtsherman on Mar 12, 2024 11:45:25 GMT -6
Yes, no doubt all those super sharp AD's and Presidents and others involved would have made excellent coaching choices if they had just had a little more money. Andi Seger, Roy Budd, Tom Collins, Joanne Gora. These ultra-shrewd basketball master minds would have outdid Barry Collier.
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Post by cardfan on Mar 12, 2024 11:53:04 GMT -6
Wasn't just about money, Sherm.
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Post by 00hmh on Mar 12, 2024 12:21:08 GMT -6
Wasn't just about money, Sherm. The interesting thing to me, living through this was the conscious decision to use BB as a cash cow. that decision hand in hand with the conviction that it was easy to win at BSU, the name does it, after all look at Ray McCallum.
They were right it was a good job with the Majerus/Hunsaker success, but then they decided during each search that we need not consider the number of top coaches who were interested in BSU.
Missed opportunity after missed opportunity. Then of course, after disaster, we were anything but a good job and couldn't find a coach willing...
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). 