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Post by williamtsherman on Mar 24, 2016 12:39:27 GMT -6
Whitford can be grouped with Taylor and Buckley according to the most important distinction of all. He is a "Ball State Coach who has not won a MAC Championship or gone to the NCAA tourney."
Whitford has made a good case this year that his general level is higher than Taylor's. Taylor's level was below-average-MAC-team and around 225 nationally. Whitford might be above-average-MAC-team and around 150 nationally. I don't know about you, but that's not enough for me. Until he recruits that championship front line, we are likely now at about his ceiling. I am not currently seeing that he is recruiting a championship frontline....so there we are.
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Post by williamtsherman on Mar 24, 2016 12:45:05 GMT -6
Worked in several combinations of five what? Straitjackets? Blindfolds? Sedatives?
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Post by thebsukid on Mar 24, 2016 12:47:26 GMT -6
Rusty, you are absolutely to reasonable for this board!! We made massive improvement this year over last. And, many of our players improved massively over this season. For example, last year Kipaway barely played...this year he started and was a significant 3 point threat and played out of position...Tyler started the year slow, but finally mid season joined the starting line up and was a force in the last several games...Moses started early and struggled some but his last few games he could have been a senior...he scored and rebounded... if he get's a bit physically stronger and improves his shot he can be an All Mac player....House was a go to guy...not sure he was truly that a season ago....Sellers started off his mark, but ended very strong and in my view like Tyler has the potential to be All Mac 1st or 2nd team...In fairness, I did not see improvement from Weber this season from the beginning to end...he's a shooter and deadly against the zone or a soft man defense but if someone gets in his shirt he struggles.
Teague will be better than most think....not sure he will start but he will contribute...depends a lot on his development over the Summer!! As PG's go, Person will be the best we have seen at the position in a long time...he will quarterback the team and be a vocal leader. This team may well win 25 or more next year and will likely dance!!!! Don't make fun as I was a lot more right than wrong this season!!!!
I do not disagree than not every Indiana All Star is huge, but I will say I'll take my chances with every Indiana All Star we can sign!!!
Finally, say what you want, but overall Whit is All Mac as a Coach in the league this season.
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Post by sag on Mar 24, 2016 14:03:09 GMT -6
Until he recruits that championship front line, we are likely now at about his ceiling. ...except 2 things: BSU arguably had a better front court this year than Buffalo's (by default) championship front line; and, two, there is a lot of evidence that suggests that the returning players are all getting better.
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Post by david75bsu on Mar 24, 2016 14:03:29 GMT -6
Rusty, you are absolutely to reasonable for this board!! We made massive improvement this year over last. And, many of our players improved massively over this season. For example, last year Kipaway barely played...this year he started and was a significant 3 point threat and played out of position...Tyler started the year slow, but finally mid season joined the starting line up and was a force in the last several games...Moses started early and struggled some but his last few games he could have been a senior...he scored and rebounded... if he get's a bit physically stronger and improves his shot he can be an All Mac player....House was a go to guy...not sure he was truly that a season ago....Sellers started off his mark, but ended very strong and in my view like Tyler has the potential to be All Mac 1st or 2nd team...In fairness, I did not see improvement from Weber this season from the beginning to end...he's a shooter and deadly against the zone or a soft man defense but if someone gets in his shirt he struggles. Teague will be better than most think....not sure he will start but he will contribute...depends a lot on his development over the Summer!! As PG's go, Person will be the best we have seen at the position in a long time...he will quarterback the team and be a vocal leader. This team may well win 25 or more next year and will likely dance!!!! Don't make fun as I was a lot more right than wrong this season!!!! I do not disagree than not every Indiana All Star is huge, but I will say I'll take my chances with every Indiana All Star we can sign!!! Finally, say what you want, but overall Whit is All Mac as a Coach in the league this season. This was the most reasonable post so far. I get tired of those who think we are IU. We are Ball State and that's OK. Coach has done good with what he was given. It's a better team under his leadership than we would have seen under the past several coaches. Players have actually gotten better, a lot better under his leadership. The caliber of player has gotten better and I feel will get better as we continue to rebuild our history. Heck, Butler dropped us because past teams had sucked and our RPI sucked. I appreciate what Whit has done and the hard work our players have put into their game. I'll always hate to see us lose that last game, but I appreciate that this team never gave up. Thanks coach and staff. Thanks players. It was a good year!
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Post by realitycheck on Mar 24, 2016 14:45:28 GMT -6
Ah yes, the age-old argument of the "We're better than we were and that's good enough by golly" contingent versus "We ain't what we used to be and until we get there it ain't good enough" crew. There is truth in both arguments, my fellow Card fans.
Have we improved, do our guys play hard, are we back in the conversation, do we have some good talent? Yes to all the aforementioned.
Do we still have a ways to go, do we have flaws, are there still holes to fill, are there questions about recruiting? Yes to all the above.
I would guess most agree on all of these points, right? So, the gray areas probably include:
1.) Did our SOS hide our weaknesses or were they exposed down the stretch when games became more important? 2.) Will our current players improve enough to take us to the promised land? 3.) Can Whitford recruit the frontline talent that other MAC and mid-major powers seem to find? 4.) Can we land the true, bonafide bell cow recruit that separates us not just from our league peers but takes us to another level? 5.) Can we win a MAC title with our current roster and similar talent recruits?
I have long believed that the ability to win a championship cannot happen unless we win the talent war first. McCallum was not a great strategist or bench coach but was a winner in living rooms when it counted. Taylor and Buck were not. Whitford has attracted some nice pieces especially given how horrible we've been. But, like sales, he has yet to close "the big deal" and until that happens we will be good but not great. Good is usually not good enough to hoist a banner.
I have been impressed by his approach, his will and determination and how hard his teams play for him. But we are pillowy soft in too many spots. I would like to see him recruit some JYD's and some street fighters to go along with our choir boys. We need a mean streak.
Our trend is up. That's a good thing. But another sales analogy I would make; taking over a grossly underperforming territory and bringing it back to middle of the pack is a nice accomplishment but it won't earn you a trip to the President's club in Hawaii. Next year we go from the hunter with zero expectations to the hunted and probably the darling pick to win the West. It will be interesting to see how our returnees and new faces improve and adjust to that dynamic.
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Post by 00hmh on Mar 24, 2016 14:56:18 GMT -6
Yeah we should try finessing teams with more skill and talent. That makes a hell of lot of sense. Sheesh...................You are just clueless................. Yes, exactly, it makes total sense. In fact team basketball and finesse is the only way to beat superior talent. If we use what we have well, we beat those teams that have more skill and talent. Coaching does count... This is not AAU basketball. Finesse and team basketball can beat superior talent and individual skill, however you define it. Call it synergy or call it teamwork. In addition, I tend to count good basketball IQ, shooting and passing as skills, and we as a team are pretty high on those counts. Highly skilled. So. Wait a minute, I am not so sure you are right about our talent and skill. We may well be on track to either have more skill and talent, or use it better.
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Post by cardfan on Mar 24, 2016 14:57:36 GMT -6
Dead on, RC. We're all happy with the progress we made this year. But ultimately that's all it is--progress. As in not there yet. With a stronger schedule we go .500 this year probably. That would still be progress based on the previous two years, but again, not where we should be and want to be. Whit would tell you the same thing. He wants championships. As stated by several of us, we will not get a championship until some key pieces are added. We will see a major improvement at PG next year. But will it be championship level? Our returnees, assuming all of them come back, will be a year more experienced. But will the talent level of the group be championship level, or will it plateau in the 17ish win range without the addition of an impact player or two? I've seen plenty of teams that returned a ton of players that went nowhere. (Billy Taylor team most recently) Now, I do feel Whit is a far better coach/program manager than Billy was. There was no oopmh in Taylor's program and players weren't held accountable. We are much better in that regard. But we still need championship level talent to win a championship. As RC pointed out, Ray Ray wasn't the best game coach, but he got championship level players and managed to win the MAC tourney with them. We can't be losing to a bad Miami team in the tourney. At home. Just can't.
So yeah, a ton of progress made, but a ton of work yet to do.
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Post by JacksonStreetElite on Mar 24, 2016 15:06:01 GMT -6
There's a large contingent that believes in the glory days of BSU basketball. While we do lead the conference in tournament championships, I got into the record book and compiled the following stats:
Butler: 38-67 Indiana State: 58-71 Valpo: 31-30 Evansville: 14-38 Indiana: 1-20 Purdue: 2-9 IPFW: 3-0 IUPUI: 6-4
Akron 15-20 BGSU: 34-46 Buffalo: 14-12 Kent: 38-41 Miami: 37-61 Ohio: 33-44 CMU: 61-33 EMU: 57-42 NIU: 49-36 Toledo: 40-47 WMU: 60-63
We have losing records to just about everyone that matters. Sometimes horrible records. These are before this season, so it's not current.
I'm ok with the red numbers as long as the championship number is bigger than everyone else's. But they're catching up and we're not doing much to distance ourselves anymore.
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Post by 00hmh on Mar 24, 2016 15:09:35 GMT -6
Ah yes, the age-old argument of the "We're better than we were and that's good enough by golly" contingent versus "We ain't what we used to be and until we get there it ain't good enough" crew. There is truth in both arguments, my fellow Card fans.
Have we improved, do our guys play hard, are we back in the conversation, do we have some good talent? Yes to all the aforementioned.
Do we still have a ways to go, do we have flaws, are there still holes to fill, are there questions about recruiting? Yes to all the above.
...... Good is usually not good enough to hoist a banner.
I have been impressed by his approach, his will and determination and how hard his teams play for him. But we are pillowy soft in too many spots. I would like to see him recruit some JYD's and some street fighters to go along with our choir boys. We need a mean streak.
Our trend is up. That's a good thing. But another sales analogy I would make; taking over a grossly underperforming territory and bringing it back to middle of the pack is a nice accomplishment but it won't earn you a trip to the President's club in Hawaii. Next year we go from the hunter with zero expectations to the hunted and probably the darling pick to win the West. It will be interesting to see how our returnees and new faces improve and adjust to that dynamic. This is very fine post. I agree that good is not usually good enough to in the conference, but I am little more optimistic that team play and smart basketball can make 5 good players a VERY good team. A very good team can win the MAC without a great player. Soft play, I am not so sure we are quite as soft as some think. These guys can bear down and be very gritty. Moses and the rest will look tougher as after another year in the weight room and this year's experience. Still, I 100% endorse some more JYD, too. Wait till you see Persons on the court! He'll make you happy on that count. I saw him tee off on Weber in practice. And, up front, my #1 recruiting wish is a big guy with that physical presence, both to up the level in practice, and to play some important minutes, but also for that situation or game where we need a physical response. When we need that now we just don't have it, we can suck it up and play hard, but nobody has the size and attitude to get into a big guy's face and push back. Smart now not to do it, probably, just get a needless foul. But in a game the refs let get physical, we are at a disadvantage.
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Post by cardfan on Mar 24, 2016 15:13:43 GMT -6
Persons is indeed a bad ass. 100% baller and very tough. He will lead.
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Post by 00hmh on Mar 24, 2016 15:18:12 GMT -6
I've seen plenty of teams that returned a ton of players that went nowhere. (Billy Taylor team most recently) Now, I do feel Whit is a far better coach/program manager than Billy was. There was no oopmh in Taylor's program and players weren't held accountable. We are much better in that regard. This is what I like about Whitford. He is getting better talent too, than Taylor. Sure, Ray came in and of course got Bonzi, but that wasn't exactly a fair comparison. Ray also closed other deals, but he could point to BSU as a winner with recent success and national attention, started with the talent that made him successful to start with. Whitford hasn't had that advantage. He started in a deeper hole and with a bad brand. Improving the brand is something you have to work to do.
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Post by 00hmh on Mar 24, 2016 15:29:44 GMT -6
Worked in several combinations of five what? Straitjackets? Blindfolds? Sedatives?
Any time unstoppable and "Bik Gill" are used in the same sentence, it's fair to comment. But, how much of that practice did you see, Sherman? Any practice this year? There were days when those guys really did show something, something very good, and everybody on this team at times played very hard and very well. Some days extremely impressive practice, almost always much higher level than anything we saw from Taylor in practice. Always organized, competitive, and usually more physical and more intense than Taylor... Not fair to make a comparison. Ask any player who played for both about the talent level and practice effort. Ask about comparison this year to last year. Not even close. Persons and Teague had some very good days. Persons, more consistent, Teague some that were not so good, but more a case though of being inconsistent than not showing talent.
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Post by realitycheck on Mar 24, 2016 16:40:18 GMT -6
Ah yes, the age-old argument of the "We're better than we were and that's good enough by golly" contingent versus "We ain't what we used to be and until we get there it ain't good enough" crew. There is truth in both arguments, my fellow Card fans.
Have we improved, do our guys play hard, are we back in the conversation, do we have some good talent? Yes to all the aforementioned.
Do we still have a ways to go, do we have flaws, are there still holes to fill, are there questions about recruiting? Yes to all the above.
...... Good is usually not good enough to hoist a banner.
I have been impressed by his approach, his will and determination and how hard his teams play for him. But we are pillowy soft in too many spots. I would like to see him recruit some JYD's and some street fighters to go along with our choir boys. We need a mean streak.
Our trend is up. That's a good thing. But another sales analogy I would make; taking over a grossly underperforming territory and bringing it back to middle of the pack is a nice accomplishment but it won't earn you a trip to the President's club in Hawaii. Next year we go from the hunter with zero expectations to the hunted and probably the darling pick to win the West. It will be interesting to see how our returnees and new faces improve and adjust to that dynamic. Soft play, I am not so sure we are quite as soft as some think. These guys can bear down and be very gritty. Moses and the rest will look tougher as after another year in the weight room and this year's experience.
You may not agree we are to soft but trust me the coaching staff does. And I'm not talking physically, but mentally and intestinally. It's a fact.
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Post by cardfan on Mar 24, 2016 16:52:31 GMT -6
L [/quote]
You may not agree we are to soft but trust me the coaching staff does. And I'm not talking physically, but mentally and intestinally. It's a fact.
[/quote] I agree
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