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Post by gocardsgo on Jul 5, 2017 1:33:28 GMT -6
D-Wade went home to Chicago, LeBron went home to Cleveland, 2-34 wants to go home to LA. According to 538 more players signed with their "hometown" teams last year than in any previous year since free-agency started.
Yet somehow Indiana-grown talent never seems to want to come back and play for the Pacers. Grady said that George Hill wasn't particularly fond of playing in Indy, Teague left after just one season. Hayward likely wouldn't even have answered the Pacers call.
Is it because this state is a pro football, high school basketball, and college basketball state? Are the kids growing up lethargic to the Pacers, and so feel no real connection to the team, which leads to no real desire to play for them?
It'd be an interesting case study as to how former state of Indiana talent now playing in the NBA perceive the Indiana Pacers. What do y'all think?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 6:08:09 GMT -6
D-Wade went home to Chicago, LeBron went home to Cleveland, 2-34 wants to go home to LA. According to 538 more players signed with their "hometown" teams last year than in any previous year since free-agency started. Yet somehow Indiana-grown talent never seems to want to come back and play for the Pacers. Grady said that George Hill wasn't particularly fond of playing in Indy, Teague left after just one season. Hayward likely wouldn't even have answered the Pacers call. Is it because this state is a pro football, high school basketball, and college basketball state? Are the kids growing up lethargic to the Pacers, and so feel no real connection to the team, which leads to no real desire to play for them? It'd be an interesting case study as to how former state of Indiana talent now playing in the NBA perceive the Indiana Pacers. What do y'all think? Wasn't Hill traded? Hill has very close ties to Indy, including his push to keep Broad Ripple HS from closing permanently. Hill was flat his last two years with the Pacers. He had a very improved year with the Jazz played alongside Hayward. The Pacers did not try very hard to re-sign Teague. He underperformed compared to what he did at Atlanta. I don't think the Pacers wanted to pay him what he expected. Hayward played at Butler for Brad Stevens. He has a strong tie with Stevens, not McMillan. The Pacers would've had a stronger chance of signing Hayward with Bird handling negotiations, but not nearly as strong of a chance as the Celtics with Stevens coaching. At the end of the day, the NBA is a business, and decisions are made based on what makes business sense. The current Pacer organization is lethargic. If Stevens were coaching the Pacers, Hayward would be in Indy, as would other players.
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Post by DickHunsaker on Jul 5, 2017 6:44:15 GMT -6
It might just be me, but I find the Pacers and the entire organization to be one of the most boring in the NBA.
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Post by cardfan on Jul 5, 2017 6:55:28 GMT -6
It might just be me, but I find the Pacers and the entire organization to be one of the most boring in the NBA. Very poorly run with low bars for success. Ownership is content with meh as long as they make the playoffs and are "competitive." Refuse to spend money, don't go over the luxury tax threshhold, afraid of losing fans, so just keep it pointed down the middle. No flash. What you get is a regular dose of 7th or 8th place finishes but in the playoffs, with a one and done first round series vs the 1 or 2 seed. That's all there is.
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Post by frozenbaugh on Jul 5, 2017 7:39:00 GMT -6
It might just be me, but I find the Pacers and the entire organization to be one of the most boring in the NBA. Couldn't have said it better.
On Teague, I always read that he loved to be back in Indiana and wanted to stay but the Pacers weren't going to pay him what he could make elsewhere.
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Post by 00hmh on Jul 5, 2017 7:56:52 GMT -6
These guys are interested in big market teams generally. Economic opportunity, lifestyle, media coverage, and a team very likely to have resources to go to the top. You are the best you want to play for the best. I would not be looking for player affiliation with home town. It is a relatively small factor.
If the Pacers superstar had been Hayward, rather than Paul George, and if Larry Bird had made the Pacers a real player in the East, regardless of whether we had Brad Stevens, we would have had a good chance to retain him. If we were a winner this year, we might even have retained George.
Just because of economic opportunity and big city life, I think the Celts with, I admit, at least a small plus from his former coach would have still been a favorite to sign Hayward away. The Celtics are one of the top franchises in sports history. It isn't home town cooking that has done that.
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Post by 00hmh on Jul 5, 2017 8:01:17 GMT -6
It might just be me, but I find the Pacers and the entire organization to be one of the most boring in the NBA. Very poorly run with low bars for success. Ownership is content with meh as long as they make the playoffs and are "competitive." Refuse to spend money, don't go over the luxury tax threshhold, afraid of losing fans, so just keep it pointed down the middle. No flash. What you get is a regular dose of 7th or 8th place finishes but in the playoffs, with a one and done first round series vs the 1 or 2 seed. That's all there is. You make it sound like a character flaw for an owner not to pour money down the drain... Pro sports is only partially about owners wanting to make money, I agree. It is about ego in large part. But. If you own a team in Indy are you really going to want to lose that much money for ego? The teams that go over the luxury tax are often big money makers. Those large market teams have a huge advantage. Not just more ego.
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Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Jul 5, 2017 8:36:59 GMT -6
The Pacers are a cheap organization. As in tightwads. And they think small.
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Post by cardfan on Jul 5, 2017 8:38:38 GMT -6
Who said anything about a character flaw? It's just known that the Simon's aren't interested in anything more than treading water. Couple that with Larry Bird generally doing a a pretty meh job as GM (some good acquistions and drafts and some disastrous ones) and you get....meh...... If that's what the owner wants to do it's his team. But attendance will continue to suffer, the better free agents will continue to avoid the Pacers like the plague, and should any draft picks actually turn into a player worth a damn, they'll want to go elsewhere just like all the other higher level players are doing once they reach that point in their contracts. Never ending, self-fulfilling cycle. On top of that there are NO personalities in the organization. Just more... meh......
So, I guess you're saying the point is NOT to try to compete for something if you're the Pacers? (well, try to compete on a shoestring and wait for Lebron to leave, at which point Boston will take over as the kingpin)
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Post by frozenbaugh on Jul 5, 2017 8:39:01 GMT -6
Very poorly run with low bars for success. Ownership is content with meh as long as they make the playoffs and are "competitive." Refuse to spend money, don't go over the luxury tax threshhold, afraid of losing fans, so just keep it pointed down the middle. No flash. What you get is a regular dose of 7th or 8th place finishes but in the playoffs, with a one and done first round series vs the 1 or 2 seed. That's all there is. You make it sound like a character flaw for an owner not to pour money down the drain... You make it sound like a character flaw for an owner wanting to win when you have your chance.
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Post by 00hmh on Jul 5, 2017 9:41:08 GMT -6
You make it sound like a character flaw for an owner not to pour money down the drain... You make it sound like a character flaw for an owner wanting to win when you have your chance.
Wanting to win is fine. Didn't say it was a character flaw, if you have a barrel of money to spend, for you to spend it as you will for what you want. Go for it. Spending to satisfy what fans want who won't pay New York prices for tickets and want to enjoy your spending all that money? Isn't that different?
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Post by frozenbaugh on Jul 5, 2017 9:50:52 GMT -6
I am not going to tell the owner how to spend his money. Revenue was $95M though.
Playing it safe will almost always get what you deserve. 1 NBA finals ever and a historically middling NBA franchise.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 10:13:18 GMT -6
They still own a lot of indoor malls? Time may be passing them by.....
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Post by 00hmh on Jul 5, 2017 10:53:49 GMT -6
I am not going to tell the owner how to spend his money. Revenue was $95M though. Playing it safe will almost always get what you deserve. 1 NBA finals ever and a historically middling NBA franchise. The owner did not put all that much money in his pocket on 95M revenue. I am not saying he is a selfless, sacrificing owner exactly though. He has made a bundle since he took a pretty big chance in acquiring the Pacers in 1986. But so has every other owner with skin in the game that long. Give him some credit for staying in Indy and not cashing out! The Pacers get 20M in gate receipts compared to 128M for the Knicks or 100M for the Lakers or 75M for the Bulls. Now if you think the Pacers Brand, Arena revenue, Market, and NBA TV revenue allows them the same ability to gamble and take risks, I don't get that. I give them the same poor marks for decisions made as any fan, certainly I am not a fan of the management. Still. Pacers have below average resources and have performed fairly well overall given that. Risk taking might allow them better performance. OR lead them to moving elsewhere. OR just flat out stinking the place up. That's the problem. Why should any owner sacrifice or risk his investment when the market size will not reward him all that much. The Warriors, Knicks, Celts, Bulls are all worth 2 or 3 times as much money by any measure. The middle teams in the league, some are worth 1.5 times as much. Pacers are about average for the lower 2/3 of teams, not many very much lower. Why would we expect really high performance? The greatest part of value is the promise of greater future revenue in most NBA cities, where most have larger markets to exploit brand, make more on arena revenue, and ticket sales. Ultimately valuation boils down to the expected stream of income from a franchise into the future. (In pro sports there is the other factor that it is a monopoly. So there are only so many franchises in existence, and the owners if they do allow expansion get a big payday.) The Pacers owner has made a bundle and benefited from the growth in TV revenue from the league and the new franchises and various migrations of franchises to bigger and lucrative markets. But, put that aside, the differences in valuation come down to media contracts, ticket sales, arena revenue and branding which are all dependent on market size. If you assumed the NBA was 100% about business you'd be better off than saying it was ownership savvy or risk taking or sacrificing for ego and a winner. Sure, all things equal, winners make more money. However, this doesn't mean winners make the most money. The owners in big markets can make more money with losers than winners in small markets. Valuation shows just how that works. For some overall comparison of franchise viability and value, see Forbes Valuation 2016
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Post by williamtsherman on Jul 5, 2017 11:40:18 GMT -6
I don't think the unattractiveness of Indiana to NBA players is primarily the result of something the Pacers organization does or does not do. If you polled a sample of men from the same demographic profile as NBA players and asked them where they would want to live if they made $10 million plus per year, Indianapolis would come in very low on the list... even among Indiana natives.
The Pacers, by the way, are completely screwed for the foreseeable future. Being a total bandwagon fan, where the Pacers are concerned, I don't expect to be paying any attention to them for quite some time. How would they possibly compile a championship contending roster within the next 5 or 6 years? I do not see any plausible path to that. It would take a miracle of drafting. They are probably just good enough to stay out of the upper lottery levels. The hell with them.
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