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Post by frozenbaugh on Jan 25, 2018 7:01:45 GMT -6
Bg has a freshman averaging 15, Miami has averaging 14, Ohio has one averaging 14, and thats just taking 3 minutes looking at the top 20 scores in the MAC. Im sure if I spent an hour looking at other MAC like conferences I could find many many more averaging around 15.. When was the last time we had that? I will have to check because I seem to remember Ball State having more than one freshman of the year or at least on the all-freshman team for a few years because the team was so bad the incoming freshmen were better.
Those teams above aren't going to win the MAC.
Sean Sellers 2015 Xavier Turner 2014 Jarrod Jones 2009 Maurice Acker 2006
4 frosh of the year in the last 12 years
Ball State has never had a 6th man of the year. An Akron or Kent player has won that 9 times of 14 years which would speak of depth on a team.
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Post by rmcalhoun on Jan 25, 2018 9:34:05 GMT -6
Bg has a freshman averaging 15, Miami has averaging 14, Ohio has one averaging 14, and thats just taking 3 minutes looking at the top 20 scores in the MAC. Im sure if I spent an hour looking at other MAC like conferences I could find many many more averaging around 15.. When was the last time we had that? When we had no returning players ready to go. When we didn't have much scoring. bsu1 has it right. You will find freshmen who start and contribute, but we have had our share FPOY and all stars, maybe more concerning our transfer recruits who you'd expect to get more PT. All of the above is true and I am not asking for a star or phenom. Just a kid who comes in as a freshman and averages 10-12 points. Someone you can say by the time this kid is a junior/senior he is going to be averaging 15-20. This happens all the time in the college basketball world in every conference. Sellers did it but never did it again, Moses has never averaged above 10. Teague even with a redhsirt has not done it yet. Transfers are not freshman so they are out of the discussion.
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Post by rmcalhoun on Jan 25, 2018 9:36:52 GMT -6
Bg has a freshman averaging 15, Miami has averaging 14, Ohio has one averaging 14, and thats just taking 3 minutes looking at the top 20 scores in the MAC. Im sure if I spent an hour looking at other MAC like conferences I could find many many more averaging around 15.. When was the last time we had that? I will have to check because I seem to remember Ball State having more than one freshman of the year or at least on the all-freshman team for a few years because the team was so bad the incoming freshmen were better.
Those teams above aren't going to win the MAC.
Sean Sellers 2015 Xavier Turner 2014 Jarrod Jones 2009 Maurice Acker 2006
4 frosh of the year in the last 12 years
Ball State has never had a 6th man of the year. An Akron or Kent player has won that 9 times of 14 years which would speak of depth on a team.
Sellers never really backed up that season, Turner transfered as did Acker. JOnes is a good example of one we did get. I would also say yes to Acker if he had stayed
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Post by cardfan on Jan 25, 2018 10:04:07 GMT -6
When we had no returning players ready to go. When we didn't have much scoring. bsu1 has it right. You will find freshmen who start and contribute, but we have had our share FPOY and all stars, maybe more concerning our transfer recruits who you'd expect to get more PT. All of the above is true and I am not asking for a star or phenom. Just a kid who comes in as a freshman and averages 10-12 points. Someone you can say by the time this kid is a junior/senior he is going to be averaging 15-20. This happens all the time in the college basketball world in every conference. Sellers did it but never did it again, Moses has never averaged above 10. Teague even with a redhsirt has not done it yet. Transfers are not freshman so they are out of the discussion. Yes. What Rob said.
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Post by 00hmh on Jan 25, 2018 10:35:48 GMT -6
All of the above is true and I am not asking for a star or phenom. Just a kid who comes in as a freshman and averages 10-12 points. Someone you can say by the time this kid is a junior/senior he is going to be averaging 15-20. This happens all the time in the college basketball world in every conference. Sellers did it but never did it again, Moses has never averaged above 10. Teague even with a redhsirt has not done it yet. Transfers are not freshman so they are out of the discussion. Yes. What Rob said. In the MAC we're talking about a 3 star recruit starting most places, but maybe not if there are returning players, or good transfers eligible. Besides the MAC just doesn't get that many clear cut 3 star players. In the MAC we get good recruits who need time to be a starter on most teams. But on a weak team or one with a defined need, sure they start and probably contribute. 10-12 points is a solid starter in the MAC most of the time. I disagree about any magic number on a team where a player has to fight for PT, think Moses does count, Sellers and Tyler were good contributors as freshmen and Teague counts last year. Transfers muddy the waters because they will almost always be better than a freshman unless the freshman is a phenom, so that makes it harder for us to see a player break in as a freshman. What role is the player given, how he is used may not produce 10-12 points but I would not use that as a standard. In a healthy program with good talent, freshmen will not average as much production of any kind as another equal player on a weaker team or who fills a specific need.
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Post by rmcalhoun on Jan 25, 2018 11:14:01 GMT -6
There is a whole lot of backtalk and excuses in that response. You are also right in some of that response. Lets just not be silly and argue about it I know you get my point and what I am saying.
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Post by 00hmh on Jan 25, 2018 13:01:36 GMT -6
There is a whole lot of backtalk and excuses in that response. You are also right in some of that response. Lets just not be silly and argue about it I know you get my point and what I am saying. Well we certainly agree we want a solid contributor out freshmen by the time they are juniors. How soon before that, and how many points that are the things I'm am raising a question about. I'd expect to have all senior and junior starters and underclassmen working their way into the rotation. And love to have the occasional early breakthrough you can't keep on the bench. We have done some of that, I'm looking forward to some of the current freshmen and recruits doing that, but see a lot of talent among current sophomores and juniors.
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Post by reevo on Jan 25, 2018 13:29:26 GMT -6
In the MAC we're talking about a 3 star recruit starting most places, but maybe not if there are returning players, or good transfers eligible. Besides the MAC just doesn't get that many clear cut 3 star players. In the MAC we get good recruits who need time to be a starter on most teams. But on a weak team or one with a defined need, sure they start and probably contribute. 10-12 points is a solid starter in the MAC most of the time. I disagree about any magic number on a team where a player has to fight for PT, think Moses does count, Sellers and Tyler were good contributors as freshmen and Teague counts last year. Transfers muddy the waters because they will almost always be better than a freshman unless the freshman is a phenom, so that makes it harder for us to see a player break in as a freshman. What role is the player given, how he is used may not produce 10-12 points but I would not use that as a standard. In a healthy program with good talent, freshmen will not average as much production of any kind as another equal player on a weaker team or who fills a specific need. Lets put it this way, Whitford, who we were told is a great recruiter has yet to recruit a freshman difference maker. Majerus/Hunsaker had Thompson and Payne, though they had to sit because of prop 48 were difference makers. McCallum had Bonzi, T. Smith that were major difference makers and even Duane Clemons was very good as a freshman as he averaged 10 pts a game and did great things over the course of his career. Difference makers contribute regardless of the talent around them. Whitford has recruited better (Freshman) compared to his predecessor but he still has a way to go. After 5 years, we are looking at mediocrity once again unless something changes over the next few weeks. No excuses, we want results and not the same garbage we have been fed over the last 2 years.
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Post by 00hmh on Jan 25, 2018 14:38:54 GMT -6
In the MAC we're talking about a 3 star recruit starting most places, but maybe not if there are returning players, or good transfers eligible. Besides the MAC just doesn't get that many clear cut 3 star players........What role is the player given, how he is used may not produce 10-12 points but I would not use that as a standard. In a healthy program with good talent, freshmen will not average as much production of any kind as another equal player on a weaker team or who fills a specific need. Lets put it this way, Whitford, who we were told is a great recruiter has yet to recruit a freshman difference maker. Majerus/Hunsaker had Thompson and Payne, though they had to sit because of prop 48 were difference makers. McCallum had Bonzi, T. Smith that were major difference makers and even Duane Clemons was very good as a freshman as he averaged 10 pts a game and did great things over the course of his career. Difference makers contribute regardless of the talent around them. Whitford has recruited better (Freshman) compared to his predecessor but he still has a way to go. My point above is that we'd all like to see BSU grab the brass ring and get that star as a freshman. Good points, but let's qualify them a little. Whitford perhaps is not a "great recruiter" although he's good. Especially if you consider he came in with no coaching reputation and was working with a failed Program. Next years team looks like it will have more talent available on the court than the current team. This has been true about every year. None of those coaches you named started out in quite the hole he did. Some of those recruits were in the running for the MAC all time best recruits, this is not typical for very many MAC coaches, at BSU or not. All the players were you name did contribute early. Those coaches were good recruiters. Majerus had more connection and experience than we'll ever probably see in a new coach. What was probably more impressive than the home town recruit he got in Chandler was his transfer successes. Hunsaker became coach with BSU riding pretty high. Ray was a good recruiter, but let's face it, Bonzi was an unusual recruitment by a friend of the family from Muncie. Nobody denies our history, but, Whitford did not come with the benefit of much history. Lots of things are different in college recruiting, the MAC and BSU today.
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Post by cardfan on Jan 25, 2018 15:08:29 GMT -6
Whitford came in with the reputation of being a great recruiter, allegedly getting some big time recruits to AZ. But that’s Arizona. And, he had the reputation of being a tremendous developer of talent. Remember the Wally Szerbiack testimony?
Still waiting on both aspects of that reputation to truly come to fruition.
And again, Whitford took over a program that went .500 the year before he took over. He turned that into 5 and 7 wins while trying to instill “culture change) Mediocre program when he took over? Yes. Failed? No.
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Post by 00hmh on Jan 25, 2018 15:10:12 GMT -6
Whether we get what we hoped for this year, it looks to me like we are below the top two teams this year, not that far below Toledo, and probably in the mix for number 3 with maybe 3 or 4 other teams. All that have flaws. This may disappoint us, but c'mon, the season isn't over.
I never expected a freshman break out this year. Too much talent ahead of Ish and Gunn.
Freshmen should not be a do or die issue. Next year we see two good senior starters in Persons and Moses. Not perfect, but good players with good experience.
We'll have good juniors in Teague, Walton and Mallers. These five represent a pretty talented first five.
We'll also have sophomores Hazen, who should be as good as any starter, Gunn, and Ish.
Our freshmen class already has two promising recruits who add size and athleticism on the perimeter, and we'll have a 6-10 red shirt who has worked hard and has some physical ability to work with. That may not make us the most talented MAC team in every department, the team will not be perfect, but we're going to have talent to work with.
I hate it that we lose a guy in Walker who we expected to come back and we have to find a way to replace his shooting, but we do have 2 more scholarships and Whit has a track record of adding some good recruits late.
I just can't see looking at this with a negative attitude. We'll likely never see the results, or the turn around Majerus/Hunsaker accomplished, I am pessimistic about that, and we can't keep going back to that as the standard we actually expect of every coach, and that it is failure if not matched. Sure, I'd love somebody to come out of the box a freshman star. But I'll be surprised, with 5-7 newcomers added to 6 solid talents we have seen play in games, if we don't see somebody break out. The team promises to be bigger, more athletic, which we have identified as the weakness for this team.
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Post by 00hmh on Jan 25, 2018 15:18:44 GMT -6
Whitford came in with the reputation of being a great recruiter, allegedly getting some big time recruits to AZ. But that’s Arizona. And, he had the reputation of being a tremendous developer of talent. Remember the Wally Szerbiack testimony? Still waiting on both aspects of that reputation to truly come to fruition. And again, Whitford took over a program that went .500 the year before he took over. He turned that into 5 and 7 wins while trying to instill “culture change) Mediocre program when he took over? Yes. Failed? No. Do you honestly say you expected much that first year? We were going nowhere under Billy. I happen to agree that Whitford's OJT coaching that year was not that good. He cost us games. But, the culture change and system change I agree with, and whether an experienced HC might have accomplished more his first two years or not with the returning players as a nucleus, his recruiting was fine. That second year we were very short handed and our scheduling not very good for a weak team. We have seen coaching improve and we have seen player development with a number of players, notably Bo and Franko, who were his young players the first year. Moses, during his first year, and Mallers this year. So I disagree there as well. Transfers have been handled well and integrated into the team and contributed. We're seeing Ish come along as a freshman.
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Post by cardfan on Jan 25, 2018 15:24:33 GMT -6
Bo and Franko pretty much were self made and Whit basically said that himself. Those guys worked their asses off, and often it was on their own. It wasn't so much that Whit sprinkled some Magic Development Dust on them. You cite some players who've improved since they got here. A few. But how many of Whit's recruits have not improved one iota, or even regressed over 4 years?? Quite a few. What's your answer for that?
And yes, I expected MUCH more from Whit out of the box, because that's kinda why you bring in a new coach. Was willing to write off his rookie year. But when we were just as bad the second year?
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Post by rmcalhoun on Jan 25, 2018 15:27:06 GMT -6
Maybe my expectations are wrong and its just impossible to sign a freshman than can come in and get you 12 points. It just does not happen thats cool Ill just head back over to football.
Someday I dream that we will recruit a a freshman WR and Or RB who could maybe even get 1000 yards. Heck one might even be a freshman all american. No way it could happen though because there would be too many people in front of them. Not to mention our program stinks and our coach has never coached before.. Pipe dreams I tell you...
Yes I know basketball and football are different but I am just dreaming
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Post by 00hmh on Jan 25, 2018 15:39:09 GMT -6
Bo and Franko pretty much were self made and Whit basically said that himself. Those guys worked their asses off, and often it was on their own. It wasn't so much that Whit sprinkled some Magic Development Dust on them. You cite some players who've improved since they got here. A few. But how many of Whit's recruits have not improved one iota, or even regressed over 4 years?? Quite a few. What's your answer for that? I expect some success and some failure. On development bringing out the work ethic and keeping players motivated to work, become good team mates, may not be magic, but I never saw enough of that with some previous coaches, a few whom we think of highly. That culture thing has some merit. I don't know, the first time I saw a practice with Whit moving Bo beyond the 3 point line and structuring an offense around a 6-5 post man I had doubts about his method and instincts. I have to give him credit in both cases. No claim it was magic, but it was good solid work. Not sure Francis and Tyler have regressed as much as been inconsistent...or suspended...and Sellers role has changed, he has improved as an all around basketball player and just isn't a centerpiece in the offense as he was as a freshman. I am not seeing the regression, perhaps a couple of transfers who did not improve. he also found ways to utilize the talent of his players where they lacked athleticism, but could shoot. Those failures on the transfers might be more recruiting gambles that lost. Hey, c'mon, you can't claim our recruiting sucks and then say those bad recruits didn't become stars and blame him! He's been solid. Stick to one criticism or the other.
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