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Post by 00hmh on Feb 15, 2018 10:17:14 GMT -6
Persons' stats for the Cards this season compared to last season: He basically hasn't shown any statistical improvement from last year in any meaningful category.....Obviously his late-game heroics are worth mentioning and we could have a record of 14-12 instead of 17-9 had he not come through in the clutch. But I'm not fond of the attitude that often comes out, and I feel like if he doesn't hit those 3 end-of-game shots, we'd be blaming Persons' decline as one of the big reasons the season was a disappointment. Most agree on the attitude, don't think that has changed a lot either, but there are pluses and minuses with the attitude. Performance is against slightly better competition, but he is getting essentially the same production. OTOH, he is the player who probably needed the least to improve. And the intangibles he provides in terms of toughness and determination, leadership not just those buzzer beaters make him a key for us. Given a better schedule and the loss of players, and need for adjustments we have had, if we had suffered a decline the very slight decline in his production would not be the reason. I hope he improves his play next year, but the best case may be that he does improve and his production actually declines, because others do more of the scoring, and he gets even more defensive attention. If I had to guess, he well may be more of an off guard next year, and need to pick up more 3pfga. He could improve his scoring as he gets more open looks when others get to the basket and pass out to him. Another year of the current production will be quite good.
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Post by redbirdman on Feb 15, 2018 12:11:56 GMT -6
I like to listen to the opposing teams broadcast crews & probably the best description I heard was the Toledo broadcaster calling him the middle line backer playing guard for BSU. I also heard him spoke of a gutter mouth or foul mouth. They have frequently talked of him taking over the game or playing as a one man team. The one constant is they don't like to play against him.
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Post by cardfan on Feb 15, 2018 13:07:33 GMT -6
It would be cool if he could be a junk yard dog without the very apparent and loud foul mouth.
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Post by JacksonStreetElite on Feb 15, 2018 13:17:17 GMT -6
Compared to the EMU center he's an angel.
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Post by cardfan on Feb 15, 2018 13:19:25 GMT -6
That is very true.
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Post by david75bsu on Feb 15, 2018 14:22:45 GMT -6
The young man is tough. We need that. Critics need to appreciate what he brings to the team. He plays on the edge, I like that. Makes Ball State basketball fun to watch. I must say there are times when I say, NO! Many more times I say, WOW!
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Post by rmcalhoun on Feb 15, 2018 14:33:44 GMT -6
His mouth really is not anything unusual there is typically that one guy on every team. So far he knows where to do shtick and either not get caught or he knows just how far to push it.. Has he ever been T'd up for the language or showboating. He never really points it at the refs so maybe that is why he gets away with it.
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Post by cardfan on Feb 15, 2018 14:35:44 GMT -6
Tough is good. Foul mouthed, poor representative of BSU basketball is not. He can be tough without throwing the F bomb at pretty much everybody. Most of the venues we play in the crowds are kinda sparse and it's easy for people in the stands to hear what's said. He crosses the line when he curses at fans. That part is not necessary.
He has at least one T for running his mouth at refs but that's not a problem so far. The main thing is to not get a rep to the point the refs are looking for a reason to T him up.
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Post by rmcalhoun on Feb 15, 2018 14:59:46 GMT -6
Tough is good. Foul mouthed, poor representative of BSU basketball is not. He can be tough without throwing the F bomb at pretty much everybody. Most of the venues we play in the crowds are kinda sparse and it's easy for people in the stands to hear what's said. He crosses the line when he curses at fans. That part is not necessary. He has at least one T for running his mouth at refs but that's not a problem so far. The main thing is to not get a rep to the point the refs are looking for a reason to T him up. I totally agree with the fan interaction he has said it in a negative way and then again in an excited get pumped way. The later resulted with everyone listening when he screamed get the fuck up lol. I guess he is what he is and will probably continue to be.
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Post by reds37 on Feb 15, 2018 15:03:09 GMT -6
yea I think he got T'd up in the Valpo game if I remember correctly.
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Post by rmcalhoun on Feb 15, 2018 15:23:13 GMT -6
The young man is tough. We need that. Critics need to appreciate what he brings to the team. He plays on the edge, I like that. Makes Ball State basketball fun to watch. I must say there are times when I say, NO! Many more times I say, WOW! I agree he does make things entertaining even if I am often shaking my head and praying my son does not emulate his actions on the bus this next day
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Post by cbcjanney on Feb 15, 2018 15:59:35 GMT -6
Reiterating others, I like the "edge" and the toughness, and it's probably to our benefit that he can get opponents riled up at times. If he were head and shoulders above opposing players, I'd give him more liberty to flaunt it. However, there are lots of metrics on the KenPom site that show he's not been all that special this year. I can't link anything since you have to be a subscriber (maybe some of you are), and some of the calculations he does/uses are really complicated, but I'll recap some items below:
Tayler Persons - -- Offensive Efficiency Rating 2018 overall = 99.5 (this is currently 10th-best among MAC point guards) vs 2017 = 107.4 (to be interpreted as an 8% decline) Offensive Rating is a detailed calc largely influenced by all Offensive Categories plus minutes played & how many times or possessions one touches the ball) KenPom uses this, but it was invented by a Dean Oliver who wrote a book entitled Basketball on Paper -- Offensive Rating 2018 in-conference play = 93.9 (also currently 10th-best among MAC point guards) vs 2017 = 111.7 Last year TP was 4% better in conference play than he was overall, this year he's tailed off 6% since MAC play began, and he's around 15% poorer in MAC'18 than MAC'17 -- Against Tier A competition (top 65 or so teams when played), TP in '17 had a game rating of 103 vs ALA, while in '18 he had ratings of 68, 77, & 117 vs OKLA/ORE/ND
-- 3rd among MAC point guards in Usage (defined as % of possessions being the last to touch the ball, whether FGA, FTA, or TO) behind German (NIU) and Wilder (WMU) KenPom does state that as Usage increases, it's more difficult to maintain a high Offensive Efficiency Rating. That helps to explain his standing on the BSU team where TP's Usage is easily highest of BSU players but his Rating is below, in order, Mallers, Sellers, Moses, & Teague (as well as Tyler and Walker were higher) and only ahead of, in order, Ish, Kiapway, & Gunn. But basically it's saying that our guy who touches the ball the most is the least-efficient productive starter. -- 6th among MAC point guards in Scoring, well behind the above two NIU/WMU guys, and in a pack where the 3rd-7th guys are all within 1.5 pts -- 10th among MAC point guards in Turnover Rate (TO's per possession played), ahead of only Ringo (MIAO) and Roundtree (CMU) -- 3rd among MAC point guards in Assist Rate, behind Ringo and Clark (BUFF)
All in all, I think we 100% recognize he hit some really clutch shots on multiple occasions when our other guys may not have had the balls to shoot it. But I also think those several shots have superseded that we're overall NOT getting great point guard play (probably a little better than middle-of-the-pack MAC) and by all indicators poorer PG play than we did last year. And at 22-1/2 yrs old and a 4th-yr player, he might have topped out collegiately and may well not improve next year either. Can we improve as a team above that 160-170 team ranking next year without any improvement in point guard play? What's curious would be has his attitude toward opponents caused other MAC teams to want to stop him more, explaining the year over year dropoff, and has his overall persona caused him to overly want to be the dominant/heroic player resulting in poor shot/pass selections during games and even at the end (I'll venture to say that at least vs ND & BG if he doesn't make those shots, there's lots of criticism here on the board as to why we weren't running anything toward the basket when a 2-pointer wins it, and he just dribbled around then pulled up and shot a 3.)
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Post by bsu0 on Feb 15, 2018 17:33:49 GMT -6
Give me a TEAM of Persons. Easier to tone down wild Mustangs than try to light a fire under the asses of old tired hags. He is one of the few and maybe the only one that plays with intensity on a regular basis. Without him we do not have a snowball's chance in hell. He has been our difference maker. He is our Charles Barkley. You love him if he plays for you and hate him if he plays for the other team.
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Post by realitycheck on Feb 15, 2018 19:30:23 GMT -6
Reiterating others, I like the "edge" and the toughness, and it's probably to our benefit that he can get opponents riled up at times. If he were head and shoulders above opposing players, I'd give him more liberty to flaunt it. However, there are lots of metrics on the KenPom site that show he's not been all that special this year. I can't link anything since you have to be a subscriber (maybe some of you are), and some of the calculations he does/uses are really complicated, but I'll recap some items below: Tayler Persons - -- Offensive Efficiency Rating 2018 overall = 99.5 (this is currently 10th-best among MAC point guards) vs 2017 = 107.4 (to be interpreted as an 8% decline) Offensive Rating is a detailed calc largely influenced by all Offensive Categories plus minutes played & how many times or possessions one touches the ball) KenPom uses this, but it was invented by a Dean Oliver who wrote a book entitled Basketball on Paper -- Offensive Rating 2018 in-conference play = 93.9 (also currently 10th-best among MAC point guards) vs 2017 = 111.7 Last year TP was 4% better in conference play than he was overall, this year he's tailed off 6% since MAC play began, and he's around 15% poorer in MAC'18 than MAC'17 -- Against Tier A competition (top 65 or so teams when played), TP in '17 had a game rating of 103 vs ALA, while in '18 he had ratings of 68, 77, & 117 vs OKLA/ORE/ND -- 3rd among MAC point guards in Usage (defined as % of possessions being the last to touch the ball, whether FGA, FTA, or TO) behind German (NIU) and Wilder (WMU) KenPom does state that as Usage increases, it's more difficult to maintain a high Offensive Efficiency Rating. That helps to explain his standing on the BSU team where TP's Usage is easily highest of BSU players but his Rating is below, in order, Mallers, Sellers, Moses, & Teague (as well as Tyler and Walker were higher) and only ahead of, in order, Ish, Kiapway, & Gunn. But basically it's saying that our guy who touches the ball the most is the least-efficient productive starter. -- 6th among MAC point guards in Scoring, well behind the above two NIU/WMU guys, and in a pack where the 3rd-7th guys are all within 1.5 pts -- 10th among MAC point guards in Turnover Rate (TO's per possession played), ahead of only Ringo (MIAO) and Roundtree (CMU) -- 3rd among MAC point guards in Assist Rate, behind Ringo and Clark (BUFF) All in all, I think we 100% recognize he hit some really clutch shots on multiple occasions when our other guys may not have had the balls to shoot it. But I also think those several shots have superseded that we're overall NOT getting great point guard play (probably a little better than middle-of-the-pack MAC) and by all indicators poorer PG play than we did last year. And at 22-1/2 yrs old and a 4th-yr player, he might have topped out collegiately and may well not improve next year either. Can we improve as a team above that 160-170 team ranking next year without any improvement in point guard play? What's curious would be has his attitude toward opponents caused other MAC teams to want to stop him more, explaining the year over year dropoff, and has his overall persona caused him to overly want to be the dominant/heroic player resulting in poor shot/pass selections during games and even at the end (I'll venture to say that at least vs ND & BG if he doesn't make those shots, there's lots of criticism here on the board as to why we weren't running anything toward the basket when a 2-pointer wins it, and he just dribbled around then pulled up and shot a 3.) Ugghh even 00hmh stopped reading this post because it was too long. Any research you can dig up on how he shoots during a quarter moon cycle on Tuesdays? Who gives a shit really? He’s a baller, he’s a JYD which we’ve begged for and he produces. He’s not perfect or a finished product by a long shot. He’s maddening. He’s a freaking winner. I’m glad as hell we’ve got him.
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Post by williamtsherman on Feb 15, 2018 19:39:55 GMT -6
When I look at Person's stats this year and last, I see pretty much the same player. The difference this year is that he's playing in a backcourt that has completely and utterly imploded. Two expected contributors completely gone and another who might as well be.
Can anyone in the know enlighten us on Kiapway's deal? There is clearly something going on there.
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