|
|
Post by 00hmh on Jun 17, 2020 8:00:42 GMT -6
Your reading list does not surprise me. Not by any means the only things I have read. Since it's pretty hard for most of us to understand this story from a Black perspective, I think they are useful.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Jun 17, 2020 10:16:04 GMT -6
Another issue is when something doesn't get reported by one side, making it appear that the other side is making shit up. Something else that's creeping in is social media determining "truth". Facebook hiding posts that it deems "fake news" and Twitter adding disclaimers. Shadow-banning. Demonetizing. Funny how those things happen disproportionately to conservatives. I'm sure it's just a coincidence. |
|
|
|
Post by 00hmh on Jun 17, 2020 11:09:36 GMT -6
Some of this is not a matter of two sides.
Rob asked above what the leaders of the protest really thought. Which is why I provided the links I did.
Where the impact of the violence is felt disproportionately by the black community there will be much more emotion there. Rob asked the right questions.
Viewpoint and emotional response need to be understood. Policing in black communities is particularly susceptible to any racial prejudice creating potential disaster. Whether it's a relatively small number of cases or not, whether it conscious or unconscious or wilful and evil, this situation demands we try to understand how people feel.
I see multiple points of view in this. Not just conservative and liberal. The only good news in most of it is that the poll numbers here seem to indicate more national unity about there being a problem with race and with police action and resulting violence. More than ever before I think the public sees this issue impacts black communities and we who are not in that community cannot just trust our own experience which is different.
|
|
|
|
Post by 00hmh on Jun 17, 2020 11:22:05 GMT -6
Another issue is when something doesn't get reported by one side, making it appear that the other side is making shit up. Something else that's creeping in is social media determining "truth". Facebook hiding posts that it deems "fake news" and Twitter adding disclaimers. Shadow-banning. Demonetizing. Funny how those things happen disproportionately to conservatives. I'm sure it's just a coincidence. C'mon, the Trump social media presence is hardly always objective reality and he has far more presence than any other political point of view. I don't call him a conservative, though. The conservative point of view held for decades before 2016 has been turned upside down. Respect for expertise and listening advice, free trade, balanced budget, strong local government, bipartisan legislation, compromise, and dialogue in a Senate that was statesman like, strong international relationships where America leads a great coalition, all these things have been abandoned.
Civility and rational exchange are replaced by petulant personal attack tweets and being a calming, moral example not really important. More broadly, leadership of all the people is not exactly the President's norm.
Besides this President is making stuff up rather frequently, more frequently than any other politician in my lifetime.
|
|
|
|
Post by rmcalhoun on Jun 17, 2020 11:38:14 GMT -6
I do not have a large sample size mainly just sports parents,overly talkative people at gas stations and a random couple at the Columbus zoo. None of them feel like this has brought the country closer together though all of them feel like the actions and reactions of everything that has happens is just separating our country more. Most are actually as pissed as I have ever seen them and I've learned a lot about how some people really feel and its not good.
However the younger highschool and college age kids are at least for now much more "into" the various movements.
I do not think that is strange though as I was much more liberal at age 18-25 than I am now.
|
|
|
|
Post by 00hmh on Jun 17, 2020 18:55:56 GMT -6
I do not have a large sample size mainly just sports parents,overly talkative people at gas stations and a random couple at the Columbus zoo. None of them feel like this has brought the country closer together though all of them feel like the actions and reactions of everything that has happens is just separating our country more. Most are actually as pissed as I have ever seen them and I've learned a lot about how some people really feel and its not good. I am not sure what all the "feelings" are about this, but the polling data shows an intellectual recognition of race as an issue and that action is needed.
What the majority now believes is true in past incidents of protest was not true. There has been historically much more denial that racial discrimination is real and problem. That is what I was referring to.
I have no doubt your seat of the pants polling reflects that the country is still generally divided. A lot of that feeling is the depth of the division that exists on individual issues. The good news is the evidence suggests not so much on the race issue.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Jun 18, 2020 6:25:44 GMT -6
So you're saying a white man can't be trusted to police a black neighborhood?
Does that mean a black cop can't be trusted to police a white neighborhood too?
A lot of this comes down to people being bored, unemployed, angry, and having too much free time on their hands.
The other part is due to 3 major problems within police departments:
1. Militarization
2. Police unions
3. Qualified immunity
Decrease the influence of those 3 things, and I guarantee you shit would get a lot better.
|
|
|
|
Post by 00hmh on Jun 18, 2020 7:35:46 GMT -6
So you're saying a white man can't be trusted to police a black neighborhood? Does that mean a black cop can't be trusted to police a white neighborhood too? A lot of this comes down to people being bored, unemployed, angry, and having too much free time on their hands. I said none of that, I said the country now is coming to realize racism in police departments exists and is a serious problem. I'd agree there are certainly other problems that lead to unnecessary violence. That the black community has higher crime due to whatever causes you want to believe and that makes racism on top of that more serious.
I do agree that police department reforms in the 3 areas you enumerated after that are needed aggravate the problem as well.
When you have a potential tinder box the last thing you need is a potential spark from that cop having his judgment impaired and his emotions involved prejudice and discomfort about raise. Patience and professionalism are required policing and at the least racism reduces the margin for error. When racism is overt and reinforced by a "us versus them" structure in police it is a disaster.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Jun 18, 2020 9:05:24 GMT -6
You don't come out and say it, but you're most definitely implying it.
|
|
|
|
Post by 00hmh on Jun 18, 2020 11:16:03 GMT -6
You don't come out and say it, but you're most definitely implying it. Hardly. There is no reason white cops can't act professionally. It does require changes. Some organizational. Some training.
The Camden "defunding" fired all the cops and then hired back the cops who had not presented most of the problems and been protected by unions and entrenched police force structure that tolerated corruption and unprofessionalism. They could hire new police and require better training from the ground up.. They could reorganize and fund some kinds of activities did not belong but had been previously shifted to police.
If you do have a force with entrenched racism issues, you have a substantial problem and training just won't work.
|
|
|
|
Post by 00hmh on Jun 20, 2020 9:50:19 GMT -6
Ok I keep hearing the term privilege thrown around. So here is my question any one can answer and chime in. You guys know me your not going to piss me off and even if you do. I do not hold grudges and we are still going to talk sports or whatever else so fire away. My grandparents were born in 1917 and 1925 on a mountain in West Virginia. I call them hard working people you would probably call them Hillbillies. They had up to 6th grade mountain education which probably was not much. After world war 2 they moved to Akron Ohio and had 5 kids........ Now its college time after a few failed attempts I finally landed at BSU. I was the first person in my family to attend and graduate college. Did I forget to say that I paid for college by taking out loans that will be paying back until I die. So my question is can some one explain to me what privileges I had. Why was I so lucky? What all has been given to Me? Your history like many at BSU shows how our university deserves some credit as special. We do better with that kid who has potential and has not had the right place to find it and develop it. It's a reason I stayed at BSU when other places might have been better in terms of academic career, pay, prestige. That and I thought Muncie was a very good place for my family in the 80's and 90's when my career options were probably greatest, and a time I felt I was doing something important here. Did not want to give that up and I was not moving if it meant breaking up what was working well for my kids.
As for white privilege, you may partly answer your own question in your life story. It may very well be a burden most whites do not carry, rather than a privilege they possess.
You deserve great credit. It is hard to escape the projects you grew up in, mostly black. (Ask why were so many more blacks than whites in a place that was a challenge to escape? There is a history that explains that.) I look back on the mixed race. low income neighborhood I grew up in and do not see many of my friends from that time when I was a kid, white or black, that finished college. Those that did were predominantly white kids. It's hard without race as a factor to beat the odds.
I do not buy this is a case of racial inferiority, not in character, or intelligence, or any other innate ability coming with race genetics. Grandparents and parents with poor education and no wealth from West Virginia, or in my case from Ireland, may be in some ways be the same as having grandparents born in slavery or a generation away from that. But the history of slavery and the history of Jim Crow in the South I think creates a different burden than being a white immigrant to America from distance places like West Virginia or Italy or Ireland, it was burden created by law, built into culture (in the South especially), enforced by law. For generations. Even following legal freedom, much disadvantage was largely reinstated by Jim Crow laws. Race and history related to race endured not a few generations but for 200 years. That makes a difference.
You and I overcame the odds coming from similar stressed family and economic background as many of these families who make up those race statistics above. Many of our white friends did not have to do that. Statistically it makes a big difference. We are outliers on that spectrum.
|
|
|
|
Post by rusty on Jun 20, 2020 13:26:14 GMT -6
70% of Americans identify as white, 13.9% are black. Black citizens compromise 40% of fatal police shootings.
You guys just don't get it. There is no equality when minorities are treated different than white folks.
|
|
|
|
Post by williamtsherman on Jun 21, 2020 20:48:51 GMT -6
70% of Americans identify as white, 13.9% are black. Black citizens compromise 40% of fatal police shootings. You guys just don't get it. There is no equality when minorities are treated different than white folks. Can you allow yourself to another possible reason why blacks tend to be shot more often by police? Just curious. I'm interested in the limits of your thinking, because you seem to be representative tive of a certain type Hint: males make up 92% of the people shot by police |
|
|
|
Post by JacksonStreetElite on Jun 24, 2020 8:53:36 GMT -6
In case you haven't seen it here's the Rayshard Brooks body cam video. As someone who is anti-state and typically very critical of police, I can't say that I believe anything captured on the video was mishandled by the officers responding. The attempted arrest was clearly lawful. Once he resists arrest the camera gets shaky and knocked off the vest, so we can't see the situation when he actually discharged the firearm. I have a hard time believing a grand jury would indict.
|
|
|
|
Post by JacksonStreetElite on Jun 24, 2020 9:46:50 GMT -6
And here is Brooks running and pointing the taser at the cop.
|
|
