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Post by 00hmh on Jul 13, 2020 11:21:50 GMT -6
It could be that teaching is not a suitable job for people over 60 for the foreseeable future. But we can't completely shut down k-12 education because of that The discussion is this Fall.
Longer term is not certain, I agree.
But OTOH assuming the vaccine and the cure which our glorious Leader says is just around the corner, I do not understand why delaying full opening a bit is a problem or why we would worry about those older teachers beyond the fall.
The kicker here is that the Leader's administration is insisting on full time in person opening schools. VERY few local school systems would do that right now.
If we had done reopening in any kind of proper way, it might have made sense. We'd be entering the school year at a low point in positive cases. We'd have people used to using masks and that would be a big difference.
Ignoring the fact we are NOW much more in danger than when we shut down schools, and that is true in many more states, and insisting NOW on a national coordination to open schools, and area where we value local government, that is neither good government or good conservative doctrine.
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Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Jul 13, 2020 13:32:33 GMT -6
I think it's cute that you don't think financial lobbying and corruption go hand-in-hand.
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Post by 00hmh on Jul 13, 2020 14:01:53 GMT -6
I think it's cute that you don't think financial lobbying and corruption go hand-in-hand. No. I didn't say that. I said the corruption in public unions was political. And I pointed out the reason there is much less money in those unions. If you read the thread, I was responding to someone whose concern was organized criminal involvement and primarily financial corruption. This was true in union history in the Hoffa era of big unions. The pension funds and the large pot of union dues were siphoned off to organized crime which had found a foothold in the Teamsters.
Public Employee unions are a whole different animal. Small scale and small dollar by comparison. That big union corruption began to be much less consequence in the 70's when international competition brought auto prices down and created competition. Unions could no longer expect high annual salaries with the threat of a strike. Plus pensions became regulated.
Union membership has been in decline since that time. Public employee unions are the only exception but are regulated differently and just not subject to criminal exploitation.
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Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Jul 13, 2020 18:52:16 GMT -6
So you're saying that since unions have declined since the '70s, we shouldn't worry about where their money comes from, or who it goes to, or for what reason?
Did I get it right???
"Public employee unions are the only exception but are regulated differently and just not subject to criminal exploitation."
That's pretty funny, right there.
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Post by 00hmh on Jul 13, 2020 21:00:32 GMT -6
So you're saying that since unions have declined since the '70s, we shouldn't worry about where their money comes from, or who it goes to, or for what reason? Did I get it right??? "Public employee unions are the only exception but are regulated differently and just not subject to criminal exploitation." That's pretty funny, right there.
Funny or not it is true. Public employee unions have nothing like the problem with organized crime that the big private sector unions have historically had.
Public employee unions are just not the same as the private sector unions.
How do you respond to the arguments I gave above that distinguish the two types of unions. Do you really think those factors are not significant?
I spoke about the decline of union membership in the private sector to point out that the control of money is much less simply because there is much less money, since there are many fewer dues paying union members and pension funds are regulated and not nearly so easy to use by union officials.
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Post by williamtsherman on Jul 14, 2020 6:10:52 GMT -6
Public employee unions don't NEED to be involved with organized crime because the IRS is their muscle.
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Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Jul 14, 2020 6:39:09 GMT -6
Public unions ARE organized crime.
Yes, they don't have access to pension funds, but they still have plenty of money flying around. Enough to buy politicians. Or at least rent them.
Hell, look at Muncie. Everyone knew Tyler was corrupt, along with tons of others. You don't think the firefighters' union was sending money his way? I know a few firemen in Muncie, and it's atrocious what we've never seen reported in the papers. The Donatis, Quirks, Nichols... all of them have lined their pockets at taxpayers' expense, because the unions keep them in office.
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Post by 00hmh on Jul 14, 2020 7:33:30 GMT -6
Public unions ARE organized crime. Yes, they don't have access to pension funds, but they still have plenty of money flying around. Enough to buy politicians. Or at least rent them. Hell, look at Muncie. Everyone knew Tyler was corrupt, along with tons of others. You don't think the firefighters' union was sending money his way? I know a few firemen in Muncie, and it's atrocious what we've never seen reported in the papers. The Donatis, Quirks, Nichols... all of them have lined their pockets at taxpayers' expense, because the unions keep them in office. I believe I made that point above. And it is a major reason for you to support the defund movement which can disband the union. In many cases the union contract makes it impossible for honest politicians to reform the police.
The corruption here with those you mention was corrupt law enforcement, yes, and government officials being bribed to look the other way. The money came from the taxpayers who trusted money to the city for purchasing property not payoffs from union coffers. The corruption here is mostly plain old fashioned cronyism. It existed before unions for public employees existed in police and fire departments, in politics going back to the 1800's.
The era of organized crime in unions was big money being taken from the rank and file in dues and from pension funds, from companies who were victims of violent extortion to create a money machine producing a split of the funds between the criminals and union leaders. Top to bottom the organization was involved in criminal extortion of companies, violent action against non union competition, all to keep the money coming.
Muncie's penny ante corruption case is nothing to ignore, but no comparison to the era of Jimmy Hoffa and national involvement of mafia with unions.
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Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Jul 14, 2020 8:50:03 GMT -6
Yeah, it's no big deal. Nothing to see here, move along.
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Post by rmcalhoun on Jul 14, 2020 8:52:22 GMT -6
The fire dept has ran muncie local politics for years. Even with the switch to a republican mayor this year it remains
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Post by williamtsherman on Jul 14, 2020 9:27:17 GMT -6
The fire dept has ran muncie local politics for years. Even with the switch to a republican mayor this year it remains
A interesting movie could be made about this. But it wouldn't be a crime/thriller....it would be more of a comedy/mockumentary. The amounts of money involved in their scams are relatively small and the characters are all dim-witted and inept.
The fact that the Muncie electorate keeps voting these dipshits into office over the years says more about the stupidity of Muncie people than all the MSP dumb crime stories put together.
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Post by rmcalhoun on Jul 14, 2020 10:12:17 GMT -6
That would probably be an instant claasic.. Ever seen Dirty Driving a documentary about the anderson speedway? if not try and find it somewhere
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Post by 00hmh on Jul 14, 2020 10:14:19 GMT -6
Yeah, it's no big deal. Nothing to see here, move along. No. Did I not just say it is not be ignored.
Just don't compare it to the big leagues either, pretend public employee unions are just like other unions. They don't have a strike threat, don't have the cash flow. They cannot use economic monopoly of a labor force to try to coerce price increases. They can be disbanded far easier.
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Post by 00hmh on Jul 14, 2020 10:16:53 GMT -6
The fire dept has ran muncie local politics for years. Even with the switch to a republican mayor this year it remains And without a union it probably would continue to do so. This kind of corruption existed in cities before there were public fire departments and police departments, and before there were unions.
Getting rid of the union in Muncie will not work as easily to correct things as it would in a big city. Our County government isn't exactly a bunch of whiz kids capable of organizing things all that well.
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Post by rmcalhoun on Jul 14, 2020 10:33:14 GMT -6
one of my friends was union president for a couple terms.. There is some shady shady shit that goes on..
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