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Post by sweep on Sept 15, 2021 8:48:19 GMT -6
So when do we start mandating flu shots?
When hospitals are expected to be slammed in the summer, winter and fall?
Interesting attempt at rewriting history, don't pretend like you or your party has been on the correct side of caution from the beginning. I find it amusing, suddenly Joey wants to mandate the vaccine at the exact same time we have finally reached herd immunity. Then let's discuss the massive carve outs Joe allowed on this "essential" dictate. We are supposed to believe this is life or death but 650,000 postal union members are exempted. I am for everyone being vaccinated, but this is a farce and you know it. This is nothing but a bunch of compulsive authoritarians who can't control themselves. NO ONE SHOULD LOSE THIER JOB BECAUSE THEY REFUSE AN EXPERIMENTAL VACCINE, and no private sector business should be conscripted to track and enforce a Presidential edict. This whole thing is insanity. |
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Post by 00hmh on Sept 15, 2021 8:58:31 GMT -6
So when do we start mandating flu shots? Things are quite different. The flu is unlikely to be as contagious as the delta variant and 70% vaccine coverage might be enough. Our flu vaccines are not as good as the Covid vaccines, but we start out with decades of acquired immunity to flu.
So because of that the flu not likely so deadly and we probably don't need a mandate, except maybe in schools where children seem more vulnerable due to lack of natural immunity.
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Post by sweep on Sept 15, 2021 9:02:24 GMT -6
So when do we start mandating flu shots? Our flu vaccines are not as good as the Covid vaccines........ What ? No one knows if that's true or not. Especially your dumb ass. |
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Post by 00hmh on Sept 15, 2021 9:32:53 GMT -6
When hospitals are expected to be slammed in the summer, winter and fall?
Interesting attempt at rewriting history, don't pretend like you or your party has been on the correct side of caution from the beginning. I find it amusing, suddenly Joey wants to mandate the vaccine at the exact same time we have finally reached herd immunity. Then let's discuss the massive carve outs Joe allowed on this "essential" dictate. We are supposed to believe this is life or death but 650,000 postal union members are exempted. I am for everyone being vaccinated, but this is a farce and you know it. This is nothing but a bunch of compulsive authoritarians who can't control themselves. I am rewriting history?
As you ignore 700,000 deaths in your response to my post? A farce?
Good point that the "mandate" policy has exceptions. But, then the power of the Federal government is limited. And I am sure we have not heard the end of the story as disputes about it are resolved.
The Postal Service is an independent agency not subject to the president’s original executive orders. However, the Postal Service is subject to regulations from the federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration.
I really don't understand your version of history where the vaccine development is the cornerstone of a failed policy to control the pandemic, and then when it has a chance to work, the leaders on the right choose to enable those who oppose it. To obstruct implementation.
My point is pretty straightforward. The deaths and serious illness and hospital issues we are seeing now after a vaccine has been available for 6 months are almost all avoidable, and that herd immunity isn't doing a very good job protecting people.
As far as politics go, without the politics of anti vaccination and Covid denial we would have that herd immunity, could have had it in July and prevented this surge. If the people who oppose the mandate would either follow your lead and actively encourage and support vaccination, or support mask and social distance we would not need a mandate of any kind.
As it is the "mandate" does have exceptions, but can still succeed. NOT having a mandate has not succeeded.
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Post by bsutrack on Sept 15, 2021 17:43:26 GMT -6
Besides, you are missing the thread of the argument here a little. When we are talking about deaths due to the hospitals being slammed by motorcycle accident victims (according to bsutrack) or heart attack, stroke and other critical care needs which the elderly in Florida have I would rather be in a state with a very high vaccination rate where such problem just does not exist.
No, the argument as put forward by you was to inflate the Covid-19 death rate by adding folks dying of other reasons. Maybe like Joe Biden, you forget what you had for breakfast, but it was about counting some guy who couldn't get into an ICU unit because at that particular hospital it was full of Covid patients. Inflating the Covid death count with folks that actually died of their comorbidities has been a constant fact of the pandemic. |
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Post by bsutrack on Sept 15, 2021 17:58:45 GMT -6
Fauci had little to do with approval of the grant in question going back to 2015. At each stage he acted in the routine operation of his agency with advice of his expert staff who extensively reviewed the grant. The grant in question may have had little to do with the ensuing pandemic and at worst is one of many decisions made since 2004 at Wuhan which may have contributed.
Your defense of Fauci is pathetic. Fauci is down on the record as stating gain-of-function research was worth the risk even if it caused a pandemic. Hope he's happy now. nypost.com/2021/05/28/fauci-once-argued-viral-experiments-worth-the-risk-of-pandemic/When gain-of-function research was banned in the US by the Obama Administration, Fauci found a way around the ban by passing the funds through Ecohealth and his buddy Peter Daszak to the Wuhan Lab. The documents from the Freedom of Information Act I cited earlier in this thread documents all of this. Although I'm sure Fauci had hoped it would all stay buried, it has not. The politicians and bureaucrats protecting Fauci will not be able to do so forever. He will go down in history as being more responsible for deaths of millions during the Covid-19 pandemic as any other person on earth. |
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Post by bsutrack on Sept 15, 2021 18:15:59 GMT -6
Our flu vaccines are not as good as the Covid vaccines........ What ? No one knows if that's true or not. Especially your dumb ass. Very good point Sweep, in fact the Covid-19 vaccines we have seem to be getting less effective with each variant. There are more breakthroughs with the Delta than the earlier ones. That trend will probably continue when Lambda and Mu become more common. At least with the yearly flu vaccine they upgrade what they give you to reflect new variants forecast to be common in the upcoming 12 months. They aren't so much fighting last year's battles, but what will happen next. This is were the Biden Administration is really failing. The Covid-19 boosters they are about to force onto everyone is just the same stuff in the original inoculations. They should be boosters designed to tackle the next variants such as Lambda and Mu, but they aren't. Due to this, there is a good chance our flu vaccines are actually better. The Covid vaccine booster would be like getting a flu shot from 2015; not very effective against the flu bugs of 2021-22. The Biden Administration needs a program like Trump's "Warp Speed" to develop the necessary boosters, but they aren't smart enough or organized enough for that. |
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Post by 00hmh on Sept 15, 2021 18:49:10 GMT -6
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Post by 00hmh on Sept 15, 2021 19:01:29 GMT -6
Fauci had little to do with approval of the grant in question going back to 2015. At each stage he acted in the routine operation of his agency with advice of his expert staff who extensively reviewed the grant. The grant in question may have had little to do with the ensuing pandemic and at worst is one of many decisions made since 2004 at Wuhan which may have contributed.
Your defense of Fauci is pathetic. Fauci is down on the record as stating gain-of-function research was worth the risk even if it caused a pandemic. Hope he's happy now. nypost.com/2021/05/28/fauci-once-argued-viral-experiments-worth-the-risk-of-pandemicThat is not supported if you read your own linked article. He said it was worth the risk of unlikely accidents. Often research has risks. Not doing it had risks. In this case it is not at all clear the grant substantially contributed to any accident or a resulting pandemic. Such research was likely to have occured in it's absence. As I said above, you are making a leap to trace the sole blame on this decision. |
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Post by 00hmh on Sept 15, 2021 19:20:46 GMT -6
Here's the real problem. Cutting research spending for decades has created a problem. When budgets are pinched, the risks increase. Safety measures are cut back at the margin. You create a choice of more risky research or no research. The risk return tradeoff in scientific research extends to almost every field, from physical sciences to biological sciences.
We cannot avoid much of the risk. If we limited research to that which was risk free we would not do a lot of research in basic science. Nobody supports that high a standard. If the research is not totally risk free, not a standard anyone adopts, that means every project includes assessment of steps taken to contain the harm. The funding of this grant included those steps. We have banned direct research in biological weapons, but that is a bit deceptive. THIS basic research along with other research is just the kind of important research essential to what we call The biological defense program
The link shows the historic role of epidemiological research, genetic engineering and research in natural disease . The term includes basic research necessary. "Broadly defined, the "United States biological defense program" now also encompasses all federal-level programs and efforts to monitor, prevent, and contain naturally occurring infectious disease outbreaks of widespread public health concern. These include efforts to forestall large-scale disasters such as flu pandemics and other "emerging infections" such as novel pathogens or those imported from other countries. "
Besides all that there is an assumption in the argument here that error was made in supporting this funded research, yet no real proof of what that error was, or even proof whether it was this research that was any factor at all in the resulting pandemic. This could well of happened at Wuhan, had we not funded the particular project.
I support investigating the Wuhan facility and that may show we need to change and fund higher safety standards. It may turn out we would have done something different in a perfect world. In this real world that was really not a standard we were working under. That was not a world Fauci created or one where he is responsible.
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Post by sweep on Sept 17, 2021 8:17:43 GMT -6
"The Postal Service is an independent agency not subject to the president’s original executive orders."....................I wasn't going to waste my time responding to anymore of your batshit crazy responses. However, I hope even you can see how stupid the quoted sentence is given the context of the conversation.
This is a garbage mandate, and a deeply flawed policy initiative.
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Post by 00hmh on Sept 17, 2021 8:51:08 GMT -6
"The Postal Service is an independent agency not subject to the president’s original executive orders."....................I wasn't going to waste my time responding to anymore of your batshit crazy responses. However, I hope even you can see how stupid the quoted sentence is given the context of the conversation. This is a garbage mandate, and a deeply flawed policy initiative. I thought reading comprehension was likely the problem.
YOU SAID it must prove the measure made no sense that so many postal workers were exempted. I SAID Yes, it meant the President had no power to issue an executive order for an independent agency. And, that the OSHA regulation WILL cover postal workers means Postal workers WILL NOT BE exempt.
YOU WERE WRONG Why is that so hard to comprehend for you? If you think this is a flawed initiative, why should anyone believe it if you give a plainly wrong reason?
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Post by sweep on Sept 17, 2021 9:38:59 GMT -6
"The Postal Service is an independent agency not subject to the president’s original executive orders."....................I wasn't going to waste my time responding to anymore of your batshit crazy responses. However, I hope even you can see how stupid the quoted sentence is given the context of the conversation. This is a garbage mandate, and a deeply flawed policy initiative. I thought reading comprehension was likely the problem.
YOU SAID it must prove the measure made no sense that so many postal workers were exempted. I SAID Yes, it meant the President had no power to issue an executive order for an independent agency. And, that the OSHA regulation WILL cover postal workers means Postal workers WILL NOT BE exempt.
YOU WERE WRONG Why is that so hard to comprehend for you? If you think this is a flawed initiative, why should anyone believe it if you give a plainly wrong reason?
You are so stupid you don't understand how ridiculous it is to argue having to exempt a gigantic government agency is understandable, yet pushing the same order on the private sector is not only legal but good policy. How dumb are you ? Just wait OSHA will never actually enforce any of this nonsense scheme. It's all just bluster and bullshit. It would take OSHA months, if not years, to figure out how to implement and enforce this policy. You are okay with it though, because as usual it's all about implied intent, not actual results. |
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Post by 00hmh on Sept 17, 2021 10:49:35 GMT -6
I thought reading comprehension was likely the problem.
YOU SAID it must prove the measure made no sense that so many postal workers were exempted. I SAID Yes, it meant the President had no power to issue an executive order for an independent agency. And, that the OSHA regulation WILL cover postal workers means Postal workers WILL NOT BE exempt. YOU WERE WRONG Why is that so hard to comprehend for you? If you think this is a flawed initiative, why should anyone believe it if you give a plainly wrong reason?
You are so stupid you don't understand how ridiculous it is to argue having to exempt a gigantic government agency is understandable, yet pushing the same order on the private sector is not only legal but good policy. I'll try one more time. It would be stupid to continue to say the policy does not apply to the Postal service when it does, governed by OSHA. As for it's unique status as an independent agency, that is due to action of Congress in 1971. If you think that is stupid, OK. But it is true, it would be stupid to ignore that. I can only correct the FALSE argument you made. The policy is created for a pretty good reason, to protect employees and customers of private business just like other health and safety requirements. Since there is a pretty obvious reason for the action and you aren't saying why the policy is not a good one, why exactly do you expect anyone to agree? |
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Post by sweep on Sept 17, 2021 11:32:54 GMT -6
You are so stupid you don't understand how ridiculous it is to argue having to exempt a gigantic government agency is understandable, yet pushing the same order on the private sector is not only legal but good policy. I'll try one more time. It would be stupid to continue to say the policy does not apply to the Postal service when it does, governed by OSHA. As for it's unique status as an independent agency, that is due to action of Congress in 1971. If you think that is stupid, OK. But it is true, it would be stupid to ignore that. I can only correct the FALSE argument you made. The policy is created for a pretty good reason, to protect employees and customers of private business just like other health and safety requirements. Since there is a pretty obvious reason for the action and you aren't saying why the policy is not a good one, why exactly do you expect anyone to agree? I understood all that OSHA and Independent Agency crap before I ever posted. You are incapable of understanding any discussion that goes beyond an extreme basic level. This is just like trying to explain "small ball" all over again. Forget it. |
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