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Post by halftime on Nov 11, 2020 10:59:05 GMT -6
If I could make heads or tails of that sentence I feel I would have a more vivid response.
Is it worth it to improve from where we are to a little more perfect if as you get more perfect you make it so difficult to vote that you take away chance to vote by many many legitimate voters?
Yeah that sentence is far more coherent. Try again please. |
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Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Nov 11, 2020 11:05:40 GMT -6
Is it worth it to improve from where we are to a little more perfect if as you get more perfect you make it so difficult to vote that you take away chance to vote by many many legitimate voters?
Yeah that sentence is far more coherent. Try again please. Joe Biden, is that you??? |
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Post by 00hmh on Nov 11, 2020 13:09:56 GMT -6
OK. Just follow slowly along. You'll get it soon enough. Don't worry.
Consider this problem. Assuming there is danger of fraud in elections, how signicant is that level? Is it worth it to improve from where we are to a little more perfect if as you get more perfect you make it so difficult to vote that you take away chance to vote by many many legitimate voters?
We'll never have a perfect system.
Not if we don't insist on it, which is what Trump is doing. Of course, you think requiring ID is making it too difficult to vote. Depends on how much trouble you make it to get some specific ID.
Over 21 million U.S. citizens do not have government-issued photo identification. That’s because ID cards aren’t always accessible for everyone. The ID itself can be costly, and even when IDs are free, applicants must incur other expenses to obtain the underlying documents that are needed to get an ID. This can be a significant burden on people in lower-income communities. Further, the travel required is an obstacle for people with disabilities, the elderly, and people living in rural areas.
Let the states pay the costs of getting ID, if it is really worth all that to prevent the rare voter fraud it might prevent.
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Post by 00hmh on Nov 11, 2020 13:21:25 GMT -6
OK. Just follow slowly along. You'll get it soon enough. Don't worry.
Consider this problem. Assuming there is danger of fraud in elections, how signicant is that level? Is it worth it to improve from where we are to a little more perfect if as you get more perfect you make it so difficult to vote that you take away chance to vote by many many legitimate voters?
We'll never have a perfect system.
Not if we don't insist on it, which is what Trump is doing. While we are at that project seeking perfection, let's make voting system good, too.
A good system means an emphasis on allowing all voters who are eligible to vote. Make it cheap and easy to register, make Nov 3 a holiday so working people can get to the polls. Make sure polling places are accessible, make sure we do mail in voting right, not cripple it and eliminate it.
While we are at it let's end the gerrymander and make states allocate votes so that each vote counts.
One way to dilute any voter fraud we have and make it very difficult for a few fraudulent votes to have impact is to eliminate the Electoral College. Popular vote. Far less likely that a few votes would determine the results.
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Post by halftime on Nov 11, 2020 15:00:12 GMT -6
Not if we don't insist on it, which is what Trump is doing. Of course, you think requiring ID is making it too difficult to vote.
Over 21 million U.S. citizens do not have government-issued photo identification.
And how many of those 21 million are old enough to vote ? |
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Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Nov 11, 2020 15:14:18 GMT -6
22% of the US population is under 18.
About 72,000,000 people.
According to the census bureau.
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Post by 00hmh on Nov 11, 2020 16:24:02 GMT -6
A 2016 study found about 10% of voting age citizens had no photo ID.
I there are about 220 mil of voting age, 18+ years, that would 21 million people with difficulty getting to vote.
It there are 300 million of voting age 7% of that population would be 21 million which was the percent in another study.
Whatever the exact number, photo ID does create issues. Some of that I have no issue with.
Purging rolls and other changes disproportionately impact minorities, the poor, and elderly. That's an issue, make it easy to vote. There is no evidence of much voter fraud.
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Post by 00hmh on Nov 11, 2020 21:07:07 GMT -6
"2000 was not in health crisis. And the national security delay may have been part of the problem which allowed 9/11 to occur." Seriously do live on Jupiter, Joe Biden won claiming Trump mishandled COVID and the he was an expert. Isn't Joe just going to scrap all of Trump's COVID task force anyway.....9/11 had nothing to do with the 2000 transition of power, where do you come-up with this garbage ? Joe didn't claim he was expert on COVID, except maybe in comparison to the guy whose ideas seem to be failing badly. He did say he would listen to experts. The Covid task force will go, it's a horrible idea to base the response in the WH with politicians involved in making the recommendations for action, but the competent people will go back to where they can work in their agencies and formulate plans that correspond to science and reality.
As for the national security, this guy who was actually in the WH dealing with national security there has an opinion and quotes the :
9/11 commision.
“The 9/11 Commission had said if there had been a longer transition and there had been cooperation, there might have been a better response, or maybe not even any attack,”
Perhaps you can explain your basis for such a confident statement that transition isn't really important.
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Post by villagepub on Nov 11, 2020 21:10:05 GMT -6
Whatever the exact number, photo ID does create issues. Some of that I have no issue with. Certainly creates no issue when you want to buy liquor, cigarettes, get tickets from a will call window, rent a car, cash a check, and about another dozen or so things want. Asking to identify yourself as the person casting a vote isn't that much to ask. The irony is that you go to the BMV and you can get a drivers license and a personal ID, and while you are there, you can register to vote. |
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Post by villagepub on Nov 11, 2020 21:13:47 GMT -6
Seriously do live on Jupiter, Joe Biden won claiming Trump mishandled COVID and the he was an expert. Isn't Joe just going to scrap all of Trump's COVID task force anyway.....9/11 had nothing to do with the 2000 transition of power, where do you come-up with this garbage ? Joe didn't claim he was expert, except maybe in governance. He said he would listen to experts. The Covid task force will go, but the competent people will go back to where they can work in their agencies and formulate plans that correspond to science and reality.
As for the national security, this guy who was actually in the WH dealing with national security there has an opinion:
Joe's not much of anything except a politician and good at reading speeches prepared for him. He's no leader. Politicians know how to get elected, then they go into re-election mode. He's a liar, a plagiarist and a fearmonger. He has not authored any meaningful legislation in 47 years. It's frustrating that this is the best that the Democratic party can offer. |
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Post by 00hmh on Nov 11, 2020 21:33:48 GMT -6
Whatever the exact number, photo ID does create issues. Some of that I have no issue with. Certainly creates no issue when you want to buy liquor, cigarettes, get tickets from a will call window, rent a car, cash a check, and about another dozen or so things want. Asking to identify yourself as the person casting a vote isn't that much to ask. The irony is that you go to the BMV and you can get a drivers license and a personal ID, and while you are there, you can register to vote. You may not realize it but there is a reason a large number of those without ID don't have ID. They can't or don't routinely do those things you mention, and live in a different world than the one you and I do where photo ID is often used.
Identification is not exactly the issue, it is a specific type of ID. And jumping thought hoops to get.
Indiana is not the worst state on this , but try getting to the Muncie BMV, open 8-5. Difficult if you are working person without a car. Or if not able to work or otherwise disabled and you are without transportation. The location is poorly accessible by any standard. Better than being in Gaston, I suppose...
And if you followed your own advice, when you got there you may find it takes another trip and a delay if you need to get documents required. In many states requiring time and money to obtain.
BTW, go to the BMV site and look around and see how NOT easy it is to tell what documentation you need, even assuming you have internet access.
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Post by 00hmh on Nov 11, 2020 21:45:48 GMT -6
Joe didn't claim he was expert, except maybe in governance. He said he would listen to experts. The Covid task force will go, but the competent people will go back to where they can work in their agencies and formulate plans that correspond to science and reality.
As for the national security, this guy who was actually in the WH dealing with national security there has an opinion:
Joe's not much of anything... Well more people in America voted that he become President than in any election in history. A very large number of people... 5 million more than his opponent. So that is something. And should count.
It's also very safe to say he knows substantially more about government and legislation than the great stable genius in the WH.
But back to the point, I notice you have nothing to say and are not disagreeing with me in my original post.
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Post by villagepub on Nov 11, 2020 21:48:07 GMT -6
Joe's not much of anything... Well more people in America voted that he become President than in any election in history. Because of Trump. |
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Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Nov 12, 2020 8:19:44 GMT -6
Well more people in America voted that he become President than in any election in history.
And Trump has the second highest number of votes in history. That means he's more popular than Obama, right? Back to voter ID... Democrats keep making excuses, but we all know that they want it easy to vote because that makes it easy to count votes that shouldn't be. There is no valid reason that a person can't have a legitimate ID if they are a legitimate, living citizen. Oh, they have to jump through hoops? Boo-fucking-hoo. So what? That's not an argument. I have to jump through bureaucratic hoops all the time, they can too. If it's important enough to a person to vote, they'll do what's required. If it's not, they won't. I refuse to dumb down everything just for the sake of "easy for everyone." We do that enough as it is, we shouldn't do it to influence who is the leader of the free world. |
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Post by villagepub on Nov 12, 2020 9:21:41 GMT -6
No matter your political affiliation, take the time to watch this. It is long, but worth it.
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