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Post by 00hmh on Aug 28, 2022 10:43:02 GMT -6
Obviously I got my definition from the way you used the term in your prior post. Hard to argue there is no glass ceiling effect in business or in college sports. Hard to argue it is all about some kind of inherent merit.
Rhetoric may be overblown on both sides of a debate about it, but there is a genuine question when you see the statistics about management positions in business and sports and how there is underrepresented demographic. You claim that merit, objective measures and competence have been disparaged. Is that the big problem? Isn't there a mirror argument when the underrepresented can say their merit, objective measures of performance and competence are ignored and they aren't give a chance?
It's like the old argument about black QB's. Why exactly were there so few? Why a glass ceiling there? If it has disappeared did that mean those who were never given a chance or overlooked should not have complained?
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Post by rusty on Aug 28, 2022 11:50:57 GMT -6
Blah blah blah same old bs sherm
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Post by bleadingcardwhite on Aug 29, 2022 6:51:38 GMT -6
Yeah… we need more female brick layers!
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Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Aug 29, 2022 8:06:22 GMT -6
Obviously I got my definition from the way you used the term in your prior post. Hard to argue there is no glass ceiling effect in business or in college sports. Hard to argue it is all about some kind of inherent merit.
Rhetoric may be overblown on both sides of a debate about it, but there is a genuine question when you see the statistics about management positions in business and sports and how there is underrepresented demographic. You claim that merit, objective measures and competence have been disparaged. Is that the big problem? Isn't there a mirror argument when the underrepresented can say their merit, objective measures of performance and competence are ignored and they aren't give a chance?
It's like the old argument about black QB's. Why exactly were there so few? Why a glass ceiling there? If it has disappeared did that mean those who were never given a chance or overlooked should not have complained?
When someone comes out and says, "I'm going to hire a Black woman" before posting a job, why isn't that discrimination? Can you imagine the uproar if anyone said, "I'm going to hire a White man for this job?" When I hire people, I want the BEST person for the job. I don't care if they're purple, green, or plaid. Ask Jimmy the Greek about Black athletes. |
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Post by 00hmh on Aug 29, 2022 8:38:02 GMT -6
Hard to argue there is no glass ceiling effect in business or in college sports. Hard to argue it is all about some kind of inherent merit. When someone comes out and says, "I'm going to hire a Black woman" before posting a job, why isn't that discrimination? Can you imagine the uproar if anyone said, "I'm going to hire a White man for this job?" You really think that is equivalent? Besides the issue is far more one where relatively unconscious bias just happens to end up with all white male workforce.
If I have multiple candidates, all relatively equal, and I have (as do most firms) very few non white males in the staff or the same positions in question, it makes good sense to consider that a potential problem, make it a deciding factor in the end.
This same dynamic can lead a woman to surround herself with women. At BSU, if you have worked there in the last 20 years, it's not been unusual to have everyone in the chain of command above you a woman. Plus and minus with that I am sure, but after that experience it is easier for me to see that there are cases where looking up at decisions made it is uncomfortable at the least to think there might be some bias, some blind spots, enter the decision making.
How does this happen? It's not evil racism or sexism required. Maybe it's that existing staff are just marginally more comfortable with that white male applicant, or YOU, the hiring authority are? It is small things, a little less in common with them? Innocent and it even can pay off. That's a plus in one way, a relatively short term one, in immediate ease in team building maybe.
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Post by 00hmh on Aug 29, 2022 8:46:29 GMT -6
Rhetoric may be overblown on both sides of a debate about it, but there is a genuine question when you see the statistics about management positions in business and sports and how there is underrepresented demographic. You claim that merit, objective measures and competence have been disparaged. Is that the big problem? Isn't there a mirror argument when the underrepresented can say their merit, objective measures of performance and competence are ignored and they aren't give a chance?
When I hire people, I want the BEST person for the job. I don't care if they're purple, green, or plaid. That sort of assumes that the "BEST" is totally able to be measured and doesn't have multiple factors to consider.
I think I agree with you if the position is one which is generic and has a uniform production criterion that can be easily measured. (A sprinter on the track team?) But a lot of decisions are about creating a team that interacts with each other and with a variety of people outside the firm and where each person literally brings something different to the table. If hiring decisions ignore the differences between people completely and doesn't try for diversification there can be problems.
If I had a management team that had no women or nobody who was not a white male, I would probably be looking closely at the advantages of hiring somebody underrepresented, but I don't think there are very many cases where someone sets out with that as the highest priority.
Very small instances of very small unconscious bias are a disadvantage over time. Diversifying the viewpoints and experience of staff around a leader is a plus you might miss. Moreover, you may end up with a team that is less able to interact with the those outside the firm. There can be benefit in stability and uniformity in a team, but this dynamic also creates a culture inside the firm that perpetuates itself and may create a team unable to deal with change, you all can be too much the same. |
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Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Aug 29, 2022 14:36:29 GMT -6
Bias is one thing, but to openly make it a point that you're only hiring Race X or Gender Z, is wrong. Period. There is no defense for it, so you should stop trying. It is the definition of discrimination.
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Post by 00hmh on Aug 29, 2022 15:12:32 GMT -6
Bias is one thing, but to openly make it a point that you're only hiring Race X or Gender Z, is wrong. Period. There is no defense for it, so you should stop trying. It is the definition of discrimination. It might in some cases not be politically correct to say so, that is true.
But, in our discussion about sports administration having some long term bias in gender, I don't get your point. What are you talking about anyway? How much discrimination of this type that you are worried about exists and what makes you focus on this possibility?
My point was that in relatively rate cases if you are trying to create a work force that is diverse because you value that as a qualification it might happen that you would consider race or gender or some other characteristic, but that isn't very often a big problem is it?
If diversity in the end product is a good thing and if the difference in other qualifications is small, I don't see much problem.
BTW, current discrimination law defines exceptions where discrimination is quite legal. In cases where there is a bona fide occupational qualification, for example.
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Post by williamtsherman on Aug 29, 2022 16:26:31 GMT -6
Since we know for an inarguable, absolute fact that all underrepresentation by race in employment can only be due to racism and is in no way related to performance, we can only wonder why the powers that be have dictated that there should be no white starting NFL cornerback since 2003. As we know from similar discussions about QB and head coaching, this CANNOT POSSIBLY be due to performance. Such underrepresentation is necessarily and ALWAYS due to racism. Strange that the 50K+ white high school cornerbacks that graduate every year would be denied this career path, particularly when most of them would cut off an arm to have such a job. Very puzzling.
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Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Aug 30, 2022 6:16:48 GMT -6
BTW, current discrimination law defines exceptions where discrimination is quite legal. In cases where there is a bona fide occupational qualification, for example.
You mean like strippers? Yeah, I'd hate to have some pre-op transgender giving me a lap dance, too. |
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Post by 00hmh on Aug 30, 2022 6:39:13 GMT -6
In any case, we are probably agreed it is not gender discrimination that Beth didn't get a chance to be an NFL cornerback.
I'm still not clear why General thinks she doesn't deserve props as an AD and disparages her for it. Or why he thinks athletic management is a predominantly white male occupation due to demonstrable merit.
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Post by officerfarva on Aug 30, 2022 8:44:47 GMT -6
BTW, current discrimination law defines exceptions where discrimination is quite legal. In cases where there is a bona fide occupational qualification, for example.
You mean like strippers? Yeah, I'd hate to have some pre-op transgender giving me a lap dance, too. Noted: Lurkin McGurkin is 100% down with a transgender lap dance, but it's gotta be post-op. |
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Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Aug 30, 2022 12:20:58 GMT -6
Noted: Lurkin McGurkin is 100% down with a transgender lap dance, but it's gotta be post-op. Hey, I've got standards, ya know! |
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Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Sept 7, 2022 12:23:34 GMT -6
Just announced, Goetz to Iowa, as Deputy AD and COO.
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Post by cardfan on Sept 7, 2022 12:26:36 GMT -6
She did as well as she could at BSU, especially given the limitations in resources.
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