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Bates
Apr 25, 2023 10:51:06 GMT -6
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Post by 00hmh on Apr 25, 2023 10:51:06 GMT -6
NCAA did change transfer rule this year. A player can only transfer once without sitting out a year, but if they transfer a second time the will have sit out a year unless there is a hardship! That makes it even better to recruit the portal for kids with 3 years eligibility. Good HS recruits still hard to keep.
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Post by swenocha on Apr 26, 2023 14:10:16 GMT -6
I think Carry and Castenada are done but not sure about Dennis. RayJ declared for the draft RayJ announced today that he is also in the portal, so if he decides to not go through with staying in the draft, he's still likely leaving Toledo...
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Bates
Apr 26, 2023 18:14:02 GMT -6
Post by redbirdman on Apr 26, 2023 18:14:02 GMT -6
RayJ is going to illinois
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Post by realitycheck on Apr 26, 2023 21:13:46 GMT -6
RayJ is going to illinois Amen and adios. He’s destined for bigger pastures.
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Post by cardfan on Apr 27, 2023 5:43:02 GMT -6
We didn't have special players who could handle special players on other teams. We had good players, but not special talents who could really hang with Dennis, Bates, and other guys like that. For the most part we couldn't handle guys who were closers because we lacked a closer. Hopefully as Lewis gets more recruiting classes under his belt he'll be able to attract 'that' guy like we used to get. (Ray Ray, Mcurdy, Bonzi, Steve Payne,Tee Smith, etc. THOSE kinds of guys)
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Post by williamtsherman on Apr 27, 2023 5:55:45 GMT -6
We didn't have special players who could handle special players on other teams. We had good players, but not special talents who could really hang with Dennis, Bates, and other guys like that. For the most part we couldn't handle guys who were closers because we lacked a closer. Hopefully as Lewis gets more recruiting classes under his belt he'll be able to attract 'that' guy like we used to get. (Ray Ray, Mcurdy, Bonzi, Steve Payne,Tee Smith, etc. THOSE kinds of guys) Perhaps you've noticed that our coaches getting recruiting classes "under their belt" without getting that sort of player simply means they can't recruit that sort of player.
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Post by cardfan on Apr 27, 2023 8:07:31 GMT -6
We didn't have special players who could handle special players on other teams. We had good players, but not special talents who could really hang with Dennis, Bates, and other guys like that. For the most part we couldn't handle guys who were closers because we lacked a closer. Hopefully as Lewis gets more recruiting classes under his belt he'll be able to attract 'that' guy like we used to get. (Ray Ray, Mcurdy, Bonzi, Steve Payne,Tee Smith, etc. THOSE kinds of guys) Perhaps you've noticed that our coaches getting recruiting classes "under their belt" without getting that sort of player simply means they can't recruit that sort of player. You have a point. We'll see if any of the guys Lewis has recruited will become that sort of player.
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Bates
Apr 27, 2023 10:07:40 GMT -6
Post by 00hmh on Apr 27, 2023 10:07:40 GMT -6
We didn't have special players who could handle special players on other teams. We had good players, but not special talents who could really hang with Dennis, Bates, and other guys like that. For the most part we couldn't handle guys who were closers because we lacked a closer. Hopefully as Lewis gets more recruiting classes under his belt he'll be able to attract 'that' guy like we used to get. (Ray Ray, Mcurdy, Bonzi, Steve Payne,Tee Smith, etc. THOSE kinds of guys) A star player makes a difference. But I'm not sure it's that simple an answer.
The MAC today is not attracting the NBA level players we once saw (still rarely) 20 years ago. Bates may or may not be such a player who gets more than a cup of coffee and he has a lot to prove before he gets millions of dollars. Of the BSU players you name ONE was really a special player at that level for us.
So we're talking about a slightly lower level player as a MAC special player. But confounding this , what we are seeing today is such players do not have the 3 or 4 year MAC careers we used to see. And it's not just BSU who has seen fewer signed, and kept fewer, of the special players. There are a handful in any season, and often even before the portal they did not stay and transferred out.
Of those players who you mentioned, all recruited 20 years ago, how many would be MAC recruits today? Ray, due to local connection, size and relatively modest HS record. McCurdy, maybe as a portal transfer, with his magic, not of closing games, but stopping the opponent.
Arguably Sparks could have been one of those "special" MAC players and unlike 20 years ago he's gone. Payne, would have likely transferred today, we'd have had him maybe for a year as an academic risk, but very likely moving after proving he could stay in school. Bonzi, not a chance we'd sign him or keep him. TSmith, maybe for a year...
Others you don't mention who were memorable players here, we have had players of that caliber in the last 20 years. Sadly not enough. But I don't think the problem is as much the "special" player as it is the lack of depth of talent.
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Bates
Apr 27, 2023 10:17:23 GMT -6
Post by 00hmh on Apr 27, 2023 10:17:23 GMT -6
Perhaps you've noticed that our coaches getting recruiting classes "under their belt" without getting that sort of player simply means they can't recruit that sort of player. You have a point. We'll see if any of the guys Lewis has recruited will become that sort of player. It will be different, not the same formula that applied when we saw NBA talent coming to Worthen in conference season. What we are more likely to see is that Lewis can collect more players with "enough" talent than recent coaches, whether they become legends or not. Players more like Billy Butts or Paris, who did not dominate but fit with others to make extremely good teams.
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Post by realitycheck on Apr 27, 2023 11:54:38 GMT -6
You have a point. We'll see if any of the guys Lewis has recruited will become that sort of player. It will be different, not the same formula that applied when we saw NBA talent coming to Worthen in conference season. What we are more likely to see is that Lewis can collect more players with "enough" talent than recent coaches, whether they become legends or not. Players more like Billy Butts or Paris, who did not dominate but fit with others to make extremely good teams. You don't have to be an NBA talent to be a special player in our league. We've had a grand total of 2 first team all-MAC players since 2003 and only 7 2nd teamers. Meanwhile, Kent, Akron, OU, Buffalo have dominated the conference because they consistently have elite players and usually several at a time. MAC championships are won by deep teams with at least one alpha, sometimes two. We haven't had one in a long time. Teague was close and so was Persons but neither was in the same league as Payne, Beez, Paris, Williams, Tee, Bonzi, Ray, Chandler, etc.
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Post by williamtsherman on Apr 27, 2023 12:30:27 GMT -6
Exactly. That's a seemingly simple concept some on this board have never been able to grasp.
Limitations inherent to MAC programs are NOT an excuse to never win a mac championship. SOME mac school or another overcomes them every single year. It's just never us.
And I might add that we do not currently appear to be in the process of overcoming them.
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Bates
Apr 27, 2023 12:34:36 GMT -6
Post by cardfan on Apr 27, 2023 12:34:36 GMT -6
It will be different, not the same formula that applied when we saw NBA talent coming to Worthen in conference season. What we are more likely to see is that Lewis can collect more players with "enough" talent than recent coaches, whether they become legends or not. Players more like Billy Butts or Paris, who did not dominate but fit with others to make extremely good teams. You don't have to be an NBA talent to be a special player in our league. We've had a grand total of 2 first team all-MAC players since 2003 and only 7 2nd teamers. Meanwhile, Kent, Akron, OU, Buffalo have dominated the conference because they consistently have elite players and usually several at a time. MAC championships are won by deep teams with at least one alpha, sometimes two. We haven't had one in a long time. Teague was close and so was Persons but neither was in the same league as Payne, Beez, Paris, Williams, Tee, Bonzi, Ray, Chandler, etc. Exactly. We've had a long line of "special" players, but as you said, not recently. The majority of those guys were not NBA talents, but, they WERE special for us, in our league. Closers, finishers, alphas, whatever you want to call them, they were 'it," especially in crunch time. They were competitors and they weren't afraid of making a play. Honestly, if Coleman could get it all together and play with consistency, under control, and within the context of how Lewis wants to play, he could be that guy. That UT game in the MAC tourney where he almost willed us to an upset showed what he can do. For part of the season this year he looked like that guy. But, he gets too ME in his play and things get out of whack and he starts throwing up crazy shots and wild passes. Plus, he needs to be more interested in defense. I think he's got the overall skill set, just, where's his head at? As hard as Doughty goes and the way he doesn't back down from anyone, he could eventually be an alpha. I'll be very interested to see if one of our incoming transfer guards has an "it" factor they'll get to show in our program.
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Bates
Apr 27, 2023 12:40:57 GMT -6
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Post by 00hmh on Apr 27, 2023 12:40:57 GMT -6
Most special players have too much ME some of the time. Persons? Teague?
What Paris did was special in lacking that flaw. Also maybe Lonnie Jones. Both defensive "specials."
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Bates
Apr 27, 2023 13:21:55 GMT -6
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Post by 00hmh on Apr 27, 2023 13:21:55 GMT -6
It will be different, not the same formula that applied when we saw NBA talent coming to Worthen in conference season. What we are more likely to see is that Lewis can collect more players with "enough" talent than recent coaches, whether they become legends or not. Players more like Billy Butts or Paris, who did not dominate but fit with others to make extremely good teams. You don't have to be an NBA talent to be a special player in our league. We've had a grand total of 2 first team all-MAC players since 2003 and only 7 2nd teamers. Meanwhile, Kent, Akron, OU, Buffalo have dominated the conference because they consistently have elite players and usually several at a time. MAC championships are won by deep teams with at least one alpha, sometimes two. We haven't had one in a long time. Teague was close and so was Persons but neither was in the same league as Payne, Beez, Paris, Williams, Tee, Bonzi, Ray, Chandler, etc. I agree about depth, and that we'll probably not see a player like the best, like those you mention who comes to the MAC for 4 years. As I said above we'd get a Ray. Maybe a Payne or Chandler or Williams, but not for 4 years. Think of the NIL Chandler might have cashed in on! It's a new world. I also agree you need not just depth but one or two "better" players. Maybe not the "best.". We can do that, may have it with some luck. Would have had it with Sparks and Coleman returning. Sellers has the potential. Keeping somebody that gets to that level is the trick.
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Bates
Apr 27, 2023 14:21:14 GMT -6
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00hmh likes this
Post by cardfan on Apr 27, 2023 14:21:14 GMT -6
Most special players have too much ME some of the time. Persons? Teague? What Paris did was special in lacking that flaw. Also maybe Lonnie Jones. Both defensive "specials." They all could go into “me” mode without upsetting the apple cart. They put teams on their backs but knew 4 other guys were on the floor with them. Coleman has to learn that part.
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