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Post by 00hmh on Dec 7, 2023 22:28:25 GMT -6
Ive never said we can pay for it. Ive agreed everytime when someones said its unsustainable. Only thing Im saying is we are not leaving the mac till the mac as we know it is gone. Some say drop to fcs well That costs 5 to 10 million a year we pay 7. We would have to drop to Naia level to truely save money. Spend another 1 or two million to get to top of MAC or MVC your still in a one bid league. You want get out of that lump Then your going to have to spend 5-8 million to be a bottom dweller in a league that will never accept us to begin with I agree we may be stuck. But kid has a point. Not about really great BB success. But about shifting money to BB. I disagree we can't save money moving down, we can save 1-2 million. Besides the way expenses are growing, ruling out dropping means being forced to drop FB. . After the coming reorganization we may be down to a FCS that is not what it is now. Not D3 or NAIA but much lower staffing, support, scholarship and other costs. How much we save? The amount of saving is limited by lost revenue. But revenue from money games is going to be lost anyway, the MAC TV contract is going away. More P4 games will crowd out those revenue sources. Who's going to pay to see MAC teams? More to the point why will P4 money machines pass up the revenue from having P4 opponents in almost all games, and playing week nights? The house of cards for low level FBS teams will quickly fall. Whether the fake FBS teams willing to go with the NCAA proposal have some chances for a small part of that revenue or not, we're not coming up with what will be needed to be in that club anyway. |
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Post by cardfan on Dec 8, 2023 9:33:31 GMT -6
Is even the direction the P5 model is going sustainable? They will always want more. The players will always want more. At some point there is no more.
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Post by 00hmh on Dec 8, 2023 9:55:32 GMT -6
Is even the direction the P5 model is going sustainable? They will always want more. The players will always want more. At some point there is no more. Agreed. P5 may split apart dumping bottom feeders. I just can't blame the players, the NCAA and the lawmakers have screwed this up badly. Short term mess and no guarantee anybody except the massively well funded programs do well. |
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Post by david75bsu on Dec 8, 2023 10:45:30 GMT -6
Is even the direction the P5 model is going sustainable? They will always want more. The players will always want more. At some point there is no more. Agreed. P5 may split apart dumping bottom feeders. I just can't blame the players, the NCAA and the lawmakers have screwed this up badly. Short term mess and no guarantee anybody except the massively well funded programs do well. I have advocated for a number of years that it is time to give up this dream of being D1. It has gotten totally out of hand. This arms race has got to stop. We will never be an IU OR Purdue. That’s ok. Play at a level that makes sense, dollars and cents. After to get realistic, commit to compete at that level. If we made a change and played the Indiana State’s of the college football world, I’d continue to buy my season thickets. At this point, I tired of losing! It may be time to turn in my season tickets and watch and yell for ole Notre Dame! |
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Post by rmcalhoun on Dec 8, 2023 11:54:31 GMT -6
Agreed. P5 may split apart dumping bottom feeders. I just can't blame the players, the NCAA and the lawmakers have screwed this up badly. Short term mess and no guarantee anybody except the massively well funded programs do well. I have advocated for a number of years that it is time to give up this dream of being D1. It has gotten totally out of hand. This arms race has got to stop. We will never be an IU OR Purdue. That’s ok. Play at a level that makes sense, dollars and cents. After to get realistic, commit to compete at that level. If we made a change and played the Indiana State’s of the college football world, I’d continue to buy my season thickets. At this point, I tired of losing! It may be time to turn in my season tickets and watch and yell for ole Notre Dame! As Ive already pointed out we spend 7.5 million a year in football Indiana state spends 5.5 and is a bottom feeder many fcs schools spend 7-10 million. So dropping to FCS really does not save alot.
Now we could drop to naia and be world beaters for 5 million a year
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Post by rmcalhoun on Dec 8, 2023 12:12:43 GMT -6
We need an additional 3.5 million a year combined basketball/football to be at the top of the mac in both... Is there ever anyway we could generate that?
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Post by rmcalhoun on Dec 8, 2023 12:28:13 GMT -6
If you want to look quickly at totals for some mac schools Miami spends 38 mill per year Most Mac schools pay around 32 we are at 28 and northern is bottom at 21
for reference Alabama spends 58 million on football alone
Ohio state spends 52 million on football spends 182 mill total but makes 225 mill for about 35 million in profit
Every other sport at ohio state loses millions a year
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Post by 00hmh on Dec 8, 2023 12:38:42 GMT -6
I have advocated for a number of years that it is time to give up this dream of being D1. It has gotten totally out of hand. This arms race has got to stop. We will never be an IU OR Purdue. That’s ok. Play at a level that makes sense, dollars and cents. After to get realistic, commit to compete at that level. If we made a change and played the Indiana State’s of the college football world, I’d continue to buy my season thickets. At this point, I tired of losing! It may be time to turn in my season tickets and watch and yell for ole Notre Dame! As Ive already pointed out we spend 7.5 million a year in football Indiana state spends 5.5 and is a bottom feeder many fcs schools spend 7-10 million. So dropping to FCS really does not save alot.
Now we could drop to naia and be world beaters for 5 million a year
There are lots of estimates of current FB expenses. None lower than 7.5 mil, some as high as 9 mil.
The accounting at any level really is not exactly clear. Notably facilities maintenance and administrative costs get conflated with the University Budget rather than with the Athletic Department budget. How many things are allocated is arcane accounting.
Historical spending is itself not the numbers we want to look at. We have to look at a pro forma income statement based on future estimated expenses and revenues. This introduces more variability in the numbers.
What dropping to a lower level means is itself not clear. The current FBS is clearly in transition to a more expensive version in the near future. That NCAA proposal is a starting point.
What FCS looks like is also not clear. Some of those well funded FCS schools are actually moving up. MANY if not most FCS schools now, just as we do, are running a deficit on FB and feeling the strain. MANY of those currently well funded FCS schools will be under the same pressure we are to cut funding.
So what we have to do is look 5 years out and start to plan for that version of FBS and FCS.
FBS promises to be millions of dollars MORE expensive at the lower levels. Staff, travel, every area is going up faster at that level than at FCS. That is with estimated revenue very uncertain, and in my opinion unlikely to be even as high as it is now, with fewer money games and less TV revenue as P4 maximizes their revenue. Gate revenue and concessions and local revenue will go up but I do not see how we can expect to have much higher attendance. The money is in media and from the money games, and neither look good as greedy P4 conferences engage in an arms race to cover their fast growing expenditures. (All that P4 excess could change if you think NIL will somehow be curbed, or P4 will not have revenue from more aggressive TV. They already are moving from the traditional Saturday afternoon games and selling out, or taking the TV money and running. )
FCS which has very little prospect to increase revenue and simply cannot sustain high levels of funding, even if they are now doing so, will have to change. THAT is the FCS (or whatever successor is called) which we will join.
THAT math means we might estimate a budget of 4-7 mil compared to a FBS low level budget requiring NOT 7.5 mil but quite possibly twice that much as at a minimum level. With revenue very optimistically no higher than current. Don't kid yourself that P4 guarantees will give us 3mil a year or that MAC TV contract will still even exist.
You can call it NAIA or whatever, but it is what we MIGHT be able to afford. Compare that future number to a higher FBS budget number from the future. Don't look at current levels.
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Post by cardfan on Dec 8, 2023 12:40:13 GMT -6
We need an additional 3.5 million a year combined basketball/football to be at the top of the mac in both... Is there ever anyway we could generate that? Nope. |
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Post by 00hmh on Dec 8, 2023 12:40:53 GMT -6
We need an additional 3.5 million a year combined basketball/football to be at the top of the mac in both... Is there ever anyway we could generate that? That is today's dollars. What we need is more if we look 5 years out. With FB generating the greatest increase in expenses, and not much prospect for revenue increase.
So. The answer is NO.
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Post by 00hmh on Dec 8, 2023 12:49:11 GMT -6
If you want to look quickly at totals for some mac schools Miami spends 38 mill per year Most Mac schools pay around 32 we are at 28 and northern is bottom at 21 for reference Alabama spends 58 million on football alone Ohio state spends 52 million on football spends 182 mill total but makes 225 mill for about 35 million in profit Every other sport at ohio state loses millions a year A big part of the budget in the MAC is the high priced coaching budgets in FB and BB. Both will need to increase. Note that the NIL expenditures of the MAC schools are not factored in to current expenses, but if we are going to pretend to be FBS and be competitive in D1 BB that is only going up.
Those numbers understate what the P4 spending and revenue are right now. The one thing that is certain is that P4 will be generating greater revenue in a few years. Each TV contract and with many new potential regional deals we will see guarantee that. Those budgets all even now greatly understate what the expenses really are to be competitive since they do not include NIL. We can't even guess what NIL will be 5 or 6 years from now.
The MAC just cannot compare now, and in the future really is screwed.
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Post by villagepub on Dec 8, 2023 13:17:20 GMT -6
Agreed. P5 may split apart dumping bottom feeders. I just can't blame the players, the NCAA and the lawmakers have screwed this up badly. Short term mess and no guarantee anybody except the massively well funded programs do well. I have advocated for a number of years that it is time to give up this dream of being D1. It has gotten totally out of hand. This arms race has got to stop. We will never be an IU OR Purdue. That’s ok. Play at a level that makes sense, dollars and cents. After to get realistic, commit to compete at that level. If we made a change and played the Indiana State’s of the college football world, I’d continue to buy my season thickets. At this point, I tired of losing! It may be time to turn in my season tickets and watch and yell for ole Notre Dame! Not DI?? Are you suggesting we move to DII with UIndy, Grand Valley, Findlay, Ashland? I mean, Indiana State, Illinois State, SIU, EIU, WIU, Youngstown State, Butler, Valpo, etc. are all DI programs. You want Ball State to drop below them as well? |
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Post by redbirdman on Dec 8, 2023 14:15:28 GMT -6
Playing D1 in Butler's league is non scholarships in football. Both BSU & ISU probably need to play at such a level from a dollar standpoint. While I don't see us immediately dropping to that level I have to believe ISU is close to doing that or dropping football totally. I also thought FCS football teams were limited to 60 scholarships while FBS currently allow 85. Therefore cost of playing FCS should be roughly 30% less than current costs & you also would have lower coaching salaries.
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Post by 00hmh on Dec 8, 2023 14:17:34 GMT -6
I have advocated for a number of years that it is time to give up this dream of being D1. It has gotten totally out of hand. This arms race has got to stop. We will never be an IU OR Purdue. That’s ok. Play at a level that makes sense, dollars and cents. After to get realistic, commit to compete at that level. If we made a change and played the Indiana State’s of the college football world, I’d continue to buy my season thickets. At this point, I tired of losing! It may be time to turn in my season tickets and watch and yell for ole Notre Dame! Not DI?? Are you suggesting we move to DII with UIndy, Grand Valley, Findlay, Ashland? I mean, Indiana State, Illinois State, SIU, EIU, WIU, Youngstown State, Butler, Valpo, etc. are all DI programs. You want Ball State to drop below them as well? Actually the D1 designation isn't a big problem. It's FBS, FCS which includes so called D1 schools. FCS will simply become more likeNAIA financially |
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Post by universityjim on Dec 8, 2023 14:21:39 GMT -6
I have advocated for a number of years that it is time to give up this dream of being D1. It has gotten totally out of hand. This arms race has got to stop. We will never be an IU OR Purdue. That’s ok. Play at a level that makes sense, dollars and cents. After to get realistic, commit to compete at that level. If we made a change and played the Indiana State’s of the college football world, I’d continue to buy my season thickets. At this point, I tired of losing! It may be time to turn in my season tickets and watch and yell for ole Notre Dame! Not DI?? Are you suggesting we move to DII with UIndy, Grand Valley, Findlay, Ashland? I mean, Indiana State, Illinois State, SIU, EIU, WIU, Youngstown State, Butler, Valpo, etc. are all DI programs. You want Ball State to drop below them as well? I don't think people understand that to be a part of D1 Basketball you must be D1 in football OR not play football at all. They also don't understand that there are different divisions of D1. If a school wants to play D1 Basketball they must be in one of these classifications: D1 FBS (Football Bowl Subdivision) - Example Ball State, Indiana, Purdue, Notre Dame D1 FCS (Football Championship Subdivision) - Example Indiana State, Illinois State, Southern Illinois D1 FCS Non-Scholarship - Example Butler and the Ivy League Schools D1 Non-Football - Southern Indiana D2 - U Indy (only D2 school in Indiana) D3 - Anderson, DePauw, Earlham, Rose-Hulman, Trine, Wabash NAIA - Bethel, Goshen, Grace (I thought she passed away 30 years ago), Taylor I'm telling you this. If we cut money in football it will not be spent on basketball. I've had enough conversations about this with people in different BSU administrations to tell you we spend what we want to on basketball and even if we cut all other sports we would not spend more. So this conversation is just silly. If any of this PROPOSAL actually happens it will destroy the NCAA Basketball Tournament. So I wouldn't get all bent out of shape. We'll land where we land and adapt. |
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