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Post by lmills72 on Jan 19, 2019 10:07:56 GMT -6
Oats, assuming you give him credit for his talent working so well, and he deserves all the credit for that as recruiter, may or may not be better at other aspects of the game. But, assuming he is better, how much?
And good enough to take BSU and beat UB with Whit coaching. That is not at all something I buy.
But it's all about money and how much you can pay a coach, right? So in your world since Oats makes twice what Whitford makes, that logically means he's a much better coach. Therefore he should easily be able to take a less-talented team and beat a more-talented Whitford-coached team.
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Post by williamtsherman on Jan 19, 2019 10:19:53 GMT -6
It's not clear how depth issues are to blame for getting bitch slapped by conference opponents immediately upon the opening tip the last two games.
But it's clear already that will be this year's excuse. Injuries to couple guys with maybe one double figure scoring game between them. Wait....just looked it up...TWO double figure scoring games after ElAmin's Howard effort. Although, honestly, BSUKid could score in double figures against Howard. But anyways, Whitford will definitely need a SEVENTH year to be expected to compete for a championship. But, I'm sure that's what he was saying in his hiring interview. He probably said "Don't expect me to compete for a championship until at least the seventh year." Building the program, you know.
I can understand going the transfer and redshirt route. But, like with every strategy...it's all in the execution. It's one thing if you have Bill Gillis coming after an off year, and another thing entirely if you have Blake Huggins.
You WILL have some injuries to deal with every year. You can have transfers, redshirts and injuries and still make it work. If you have transfers, redshirts, WHIFFS and injuries, and you aren't all that competent of a bench coach to boot...then you have a problem. BSU has a problem.
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Post by lmills72 on Jan 19, 2019 10:20:40 GMT -6
Clearly Buffalo is more talented and Oats is the best coach in the MAC. Would bsu beat buffalo with a coaching switcharoo assuming both rosters are the same? I can't say that would happen. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about the teams walking onto the court and switching coaches right then. I'm talking about if coaches had been switched when practice started months ago. Bemoan our lack of talent if you wish, but I firmly believe Persons, Walton and Teague, possibly even Moses, would be much, much better under a coach who prepared them better, put together a better game plan for them and demanded results. And that those "more talented" Buffalo athletes would play at a significantly lower level led by a coach who was not as good at preparation, did not put together good game plans and who told them that results really don't matter as long as they play the right way.
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Post by 00hmh on Jan 19, 2019 10:26:01 GMT -6
Oats, assuming you give him credit for his talent working so well, and he deserves all the credit for that as recruiter, may or may not be better at other aspects of the game. But, assuming he is better, how much?
And good enough to take BSU and beat UB with Whit coaching. That is not at all something I buy.
But it's all about money and how much you can pay a coach, right? So in your world since Oats makes twice what Whitford makes, that logically means he's a much better coach. Therefore he should easily be able to take a less-talented team and beat a more-talented Whitford-coached team. NO. That's not true, that's the point, the coaching can easily be very close. How Oats does without as much talent or with different type of talent is a completely open question.
I do agree with you premise that Buffalo paying more will have much better odds to get the better coach though. And Whitford in his first years on OJT as a HC, was not as good a coach as he is now.
Bob Knight was not going to take the BSU talent of 5 years ago and beat many people, but he'd have done much better than Whit.
Oats may well have done a bit better. You are claiming a huge different in coaching ability.
cardfan has a much better argument that Oats has recruited well. I am not convinced you ever give complete credit for recruiting success, there is a lot of random element which is hard to evaluate looking at a couple of classes only. I am not sure he'd have done as well here at BSU Nobody can say whether the risky recruits would have panned out as well. But he clearly is a very good recruiter. More willing and able at UB to take some risks.
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Post by lmills72 on Jan 19, 2019 10:27:02 GMT -6
How about getting someone to get the first four to play at that all-MAC level before we start bitching about what the next 3 can't do. Very good point. We have looked bad when they don't and the other team plays well.
You probably don't realize this since you seem to be handing out excuses for Whitford left and right, but it's the coach's job to get the most out of his players.
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Post by 00hmh on Jan 19, 2019 10:35:15 GMT -6
You WILL have some injuries to deal with every year. You can have transfers, redshirts and injuries and still make it work. If you have transfers, redshirts, WHIFFS and injuries, and you aren't all that competent of a bench coach to boot...then you have a problem. While you indeed can SOMETIMES overcome injury, programs with very good coaches at all levels fail very often to do so. You need more than competent bench coaching to do so, you need very good coaching in practice and in games to have any chance. And the point is you probably can't do it in every game. Whitford managed to do it against Toledo. We did pretty well against Ohio on the road. So maybe we aren't so badly served?
We clearly stunk up the gym in ONE game, and surely could have done better against EMU. Nobody is saying different.
That we have a problem is easy to agree to. What it is, and how much it is a coaching problem, or how much of a coaching problem it is, a different matter.
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Post by williamtsherman on Jan 19, 2019 10:39:16 GMT -6
Yeah, whatever. Every year with every underperforming BSU coach there is some excuse. Seems you would get tired of it after a while.
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Post by cardfan on Jan 19, 2019 10:40:56 GMT -6
The fact that after we hammered their team, Toledo fans predicted we’d get run by 20 by a mediocre Mac team tells you all you need to know. Because it’s what Whits program does, and did. That how non apologists see it. Predictable as the sunrise.
We can also bet we’ll go on a bit of a run at some point and make everyone think we’ve got it now, and then, predictably, we’ll have a game towards the end where we just don’t feel like playing, and back in the tank to the finish line we go.
Man I hope I’m wrong and we reverse that trend this year. I know we can’t beat buffalo but it would be nice to at least compete for the championship at least once.
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Post by 00hmh on Jan 19, 2019 10:52:06 GMT -6
The fact that after we hammered their team, Toledo fans predicted we’d get run by 20 by a mediocre Mac team tells you all you need to know. Because it’s what Whits program does, and did. That how non apologists see it. It also says they have no respect for BSU (maybe understandable given 2004-2016) and an inflated view of their own program(not as understandable, where are their many MAC championships?).
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Post by 00hmh on Jan 19, 2019 10:55:03 GMT -6
Yeah, whatever. Every year with every underperforming BSU coach there is some excuse. Seems you would get tired of it after a while. Excuse, explanation? Everybody is tired of not winning. Doesn't mean we can win by hiring cheap? Or that this is a great job all the top young basketball coaching talent will be drawn to giving us a better chance to do that.
If Whit leaves with the Program significantly better than we arrived, we have a better chance of following that buy low strategy, but not a great chance.
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Post by cardfan on Jan 19, 2019 10:55:18 GMT -6
Absolutely not the point about Toledo fans. It’s not about their program it’s about ours.
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Post by williamtsherman on Jan 19, 2019 11:03:35 GMT -6
Excuses inside of excuses on top of excuses. Excuses are being made for the current coach and the current coach's program will be used as an excuse for the next coach, just like the previous coach (for whom many excuses were made) is used as an excuse for the current coach.
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Post by CallingBS on Jan 19, 2019 11:09:12 GMT -6
One of my favorite things about some of our current threads is how we're all about missing Ish and Hazen and how we need more from Kyle Mallers. C'mon guys, these are our excuses? We need frickin' Kyle Mallers to play better? Kyle Mallers who probably never projected to be more than a role player on a good team? Sure, we've got potential MAC first-teamers in Moses and Persons and Walton (BMOC from the SEC) and Teague, but we NEED frickin' Kyle Mallers to play better. Holy crap. How about getting someone to get the first four to play at that all-MAC level before we start bitching about what the next 3 can't do. This is the truth. Ish and Hazen are just more easy excuses for the apologists who can't accept reality. And Mallers will never be something he has never been, if you catch my drift. Recruiting has its consequences.
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Post by CallingBS on Jan 19, 2019 11:10:55 GMT -6
It's not clear how depth issues are to blame for getting bitch slapped by conference opponents immediately upon the opening tip the last two games. But it's clear already that will be this year's excuse. Injuries to couple guys with maybe one double figure scoring game between them. Wait....just looked it up...TWO double figure scoring games after ElAmin's Howard effort. Although, honestly, BSUKid could score in double figures against Howard. But anyways, Whitford will definitely need a SEVENTH year to be expected to compete for a championship. But, I'm sure that's what he was saying in his hiring interview. He probably said "Don't expect me to compete for a championship until at least the seventh year." Building the program, you know. I can understand going the transfer and redshirt route. But, like with every strategy...it's all in the execution. It's one thing if you have Bill Gillis coming after an off year, and another thing entirely if you have Blake Huggins. You WILL have some injuries to deal with every year. You can have transfers, redshirts and injuries and still make it work. If you have transfers, redshirts, WHIFFS and injuries, and you aren't all that competent of a bench coach to boot...then you have a problem. BSU has a problem. More truth cerium
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Post by rmcalhoun on Jan 19, 2019 12:14:31 GMT -6
Everyone Knows basketball is just something that keeps me entertained until I can dive into football full time. Under Whit I have been been able to stay interested till our annual late season collapse which almost gets me to spring ball.. Well I have to admit my apathy seems to have already kicked in which means I have a longer boring winter than usual
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