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Post by cardfan on Jan 19, 2019 12:25:36 GMT -6
Whit has elevated the program beyond what Billy Taylor was able to do. We can say that.
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Post by CallingBS on Jan 19, 2019 15:14:56 GMT -6
Whit has elevated the program beyond what Billy Taylor was able to do. We can say that. Perhaps, but by the slimmest of margins. Billy 2007-2013: 84-99 Whitford 2014 - current: 73-88 I'd actually say they're extremely similar. Lots of empty wins late in their tenure, late January to mid February swoons, career 15 games under .55 (wow, that's sobering), zero MAC tourney success, etc. Whit might get the nod with the St. Louis and Notre Dame wins.
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Post by CallingBS on Jan 19, 2019 15:26:50 GMT -6
And for the record, Buckley was 93-87 with more key injuries than any coach should ever have to endure. I know Tim had his problems, but he'd run circles around Whitford. The league was off the charts better then.
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Post by DanT on Jan 19, 2019 16:02:56 GMT -6
And for the record, Buckley was 93-87 with more key injuries than any coach should ever have to endure. I know Tim had his problems, but he'd run circles around Whitford. The league was off the charts better then. That difference was probably his first two seasons with McCallum's players. His first season was the Maui team. We were ranked top 20 after the wins in Maiu (UCLA and Kansas, both ranked in the top 5). Then fell to a upper mid MAC team the rest of the year. And went downhill after that. Whitford took a low MAC team to 19 to 20 game winners the last three seasons.
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Post by williamtsherman on Jan 19, 2019 16:29:54 GMT -6
And for the record, Buckley was 93-87 with more key injuries than any coach should ever have to endure. I know Tim had his problems, but he'd run circles around Whitford. The league was off the charts better then. Buckley inherited two and almost three (Lonnie Jones) NBA players upon arrival, along with a host of other good-to-decent MAC players. It was certainly a team effort, but Buckley is, in many ways, the key figure in the degradation of BSU basketball. He tried (with eventual failure) to sell out the program for his own job security. He paved the way in the acceptance of mediocrity and failure.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2019 17:14:47 GMT -6
On that note, Is Buckley still following Crean around?
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Post by CallingBS on Jan 19, 2019 18:15:00 GMT -6
On that note, Is Buckley still following Crean around? No, I believe he is an NBA scout.
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Post by CallingBS on Jan 19, 2019 18:18:15 GMT -6
And for the record, Buckley was 93-87 with more key injuries than any coach should ever have to endure. I know Tim had his problems, but he'd run circles around Whitford. The league was off the charts better then. That difference was probably his first two seasons with McCallum's players. His first season was the Maui team. We were ranked top 20 after the wins in Maiu (UCLA and Kansas, both ranked in the top 5). Then fell to a upper mid MAC team the rest of the year. And went downhill after that. Whitford took a low MAC team to 19 to 20 game winners the last three seasons. Maui was his second year. He recruited some solid players, but they were always hurt. He largely failed at recruiting the post, and the reason for a lot of those injuries was that he just pushed too hard. We were light years better fundamentally under Buckley than Whitford, and played against much tougher schedules.
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Post by reevo on Jan 19, 2019 19:27:47 GMT -6
And for the record, Buckley was 93-87 with more key injuries than any coach should ever have to endure. I know Tim had his problems, but he'd run circles around Whitford. The league was off the charts better then. Buckley inherited two and almost three (Lonnie Jones) NBA players upon arrival, along with a host of other good-to-decent MAC players. It was certainly a team effort, but Buckley is, in many ways, the key figure in the degradation of BSU basketball. He tried (with eventual failure) to sell out the program for his own job security. He paved the way in the acceptance of mediocrity and failure. Sherm, not to pop your bubble but it was Buckley that found T.Smith and got him to come to BSU. Yes, the programs downturn began when the WAD wanted Ray out and was not willing to give him the money he wanted. It all started the ball rolling with the admin wanting to clean the program up, etc. Buckley’s fault was not rejecting publicly how he was handstrung by the new character and accademic standards. I agree with most of your post but Buckley got blindsided and should have jumped ship because there was no way he was going to get anywhere with the changes. He was a big part of Rays success in recruiting, more so then you know.
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Post by williamtsherman on Jan 20, 2019 8:25:25 GMT -6
I tend to credit the head coaching for recruiting, bad or good. I understand assistants do a lot of the legwork and traveling. But, after all, the head coach chooses the assistants. The head coach makes the decisions where to deploy all the various resources including the assistants and the scholarships. And I believe the players choose the program based primarily on the head coach. If the program had recruited poorly during those years, I would have certainly blamed Ray and not Buckley. It's not like Ray got one or two good players due to Buckley, but recruited poorly otherwise.
The administration had to have an acquiescent head coach to do what they did and Buckley gave them that. A ballsier head coach would have made things very difficult for them, given the size, temper and expectations of the fanbase at that time. Buckley played along, kept his job for a while, the program was emasculated and here we are today.
I credit Ray for recruiting during Ray's tenure and Buckley for the recruiting during Buckley tenure. It was a completely different program before and after Buckley.
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Post by 00hmh on Jan 20, 2019 10:07:51 GMT -6
And for the record, Buckley was 93-87 with more key injuries than any coach should ever have to endure. I know Tim had his problems, but he'd run circles around Whitford. The league was off the charts better then. Buckley did come in with much more talent than Whitford. Discount Whitford's first season or two and I am not sure Buckley compares all that well. And the MAC this year is stronger, stronger for both of these guys than for Taylor if we believe power ratings.
And if you look at trajectory, Buck was headed downhill.
Buckley came in as the first BSU coach who had to deal with a new era of academic and character scrutiny, and more demand by media and the press to be catered to. His chafed at the recruiting restrictions. Was unable to adjust to the era. Whitford has done Fairly well reestablishing our Indiana recruiting footprint. As Sherman says, Buckley lost the thread there.
To be fair that transition Buckley failed to adjust with was not easy for great coaches at the time, including Knight, Keady and Majerus and many other old school coaches. This new era is one where the press and media demand more. Buckley and old school coaches did not do well in that arena.
Whitford has navigated that environment better. Not a charmer, but very organized, and does better with the press. Neither Buck or Whitford shine in ability to deal with the community. Neither all that good with the local community, but better than the coaches in between. Nobody could match Ray there. And Majerus was such a character. Majerus and Ray were tough acts to follow.
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Post by 00hmh on Jan 20, 2019 10:18:53 GMT -6
I tend to credit the head coaching for recruiting, bad or good.... It's not like Ray got one or two good players due to Buckley, but recruited poorly otherwise. The administration had to have an acquiescent head coach to do what they did and Buckley gave them that. A ballsier head coach would have made things very difficult for them, given the size, temper and expectations of the fanbase at that time. Buckley played along, kept his job for a while, the program was emasculated and here we are today.... It was a completely different program before and after Buckley. Agree with most of this. Buck did not as much acquiesce as you say though. He chafed at the new restrictions, but was inept in response to them. Buckley was not very good dealing with the organizational challenges of being a HC, including dealing the people just above him and higher administration, which had over reacted to the NCAA. Buckley also could not marshal that fan base you mention, could not communicate with the very difficult administration to deal with, and he just was not cut out for the PR driven new era in coaching.
I am sympathetic with his challenge, but he was failing to get the job done. Bad management left him struggling with a job he could not handle.
Ironically the new PR era motivated JAG to hire a coach who might be a PR "dreamboat" on paper. Young, black, connected to East coast media through dad. Wow! How could it go wrong...
Then that well may have left us little option but hire the most bland and harmless personality as possible to calm the storm created by an epic PR disaster. Local community, Indiana coaches, faculty, all insulted and angered. Racism our new brand...
Taylor's challenge was to NOT be Ronnie Thompson and calm the waters. He was so innately boring he was well suited for that role I suppose.
Where we are today, took neglect in hiring Buckley, mismanagement while he was coach, colossal mistake replacing him and a long rebuild from multiple disastrous decisions.
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Post by CallingBS on Jan 20, 2019 10:33:49 GMT -6
And for the record, Buckley was 93-87 with more key injuries than any coach should ever have to endure. I know Tim had his problems, but he'd run circles around Whitford. The league was off the charts better then. Buckley did come in with much more talent than Whitford. Discount Whitford's first season or two and I am not sure Buckley compares all that well. And the MAC this year is stronger, stronger for both of these guys than for Taylor if we believe power ratings.
And if you look at trajectory, Buck was headed downhill.
Buckley came in as the first BSU coach who had to deal with a new era of academic and character scrutiny, and more demand by media and the press to be catered to. His chafed at the recruiting restrictions. Was unable to adjust to the era. Whitford has done Fairly well reestablishing our Indiana recruiting footprint. As Sherman says, Buckley lost the thread there.
To be fair that transition Buckley failed to adjust with was not easy for great coaches at the time, including Knight, Keady and Majerus and many other old school coaches. This new era is one where the press and media demand more. Buckley and old school coaches did not do well in that arena.
Whitford has navigated that environment better. Not a charmer, but very organized, and does better with the press. Neither Buck or Whitford shine in ability to deal with the community. Neither all that good with the local community, but better than the coaches in between. Nobody could match Ray there. And Majerus was such a character. Majerus and Ray were tough acts to follow.
As usual, your post is littered with inaccuracies and a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of BSU leadership and MAC basketball in that era. I'd refute point by point, but why bother? You'll just make another (and another, and another, and another...) long-winded post full of pointless drivel like you always do. Buck wasn't perfect by any means, and no doubt the sharp decline of the program started during his tenure, but it was more so the result of a total lack of leadership around the university and athletics, specifically men's basketball. After Maui we had a golden opportunity to seize the moment. Gora, the evil wench that she is, did her usual thing of asking Buck what he needed to be the Gonzaga of the Midwest. He researched it and reported back. Her response was to laugh in his face and tell him that his bottom 1/6th of the MAC budget would have to suffice because we had such good facilities. He and his family were treated horribly by Gora and her cronies from that point on - never saw a budget increase or one ounce of public support from that point on. His wife and girls quit coming to the games because they were harassed so badly by Roy Budd and his buddies. They would literally sit behind them on purpose and loudly rip Tim the entire game. Sick people. Buck would coach circles around Whit. He would not stand for the complete lack of fundamentals we see with Whit's teams. He also destroyed him in terms of recruiting quality guards. But heck, Billy recruited better guards than Whit too. Reevo, you are absolutely right. Pete Lembo made the better play four years ago: Realize you can't win under the current circumstances and cut bait - get the heck out. I've lurked on this site and the previous one for many years. I debated on creating an account for a very long time because of the idiocy of so many of these posts and how a few posters have assumed "ownership" of the message boards. I'm now wondering why I bothered to sign up.
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Post by ruffledfeathers on Jan 20, 2019 11:17:59 GMT -6
Gora, who was awful for men's sports, especially the bb program, was not in Muncie during Maui. Her tenure started in 2004. Otherwise, good points.
Go Cards!
RF
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Post by williamtsherman on Jan 20, 2019 11:57:11 GMT -6
"Buck would coach circles around Whit. He would not stand for the complete lack of fundamentals we see with Whit's teams. "
This is like conjecturing on a Justin Bieber vs. Pee Wee Herman MMA match.
Besides being in charge while the program sank into quicksand, I don't see that Buckley demonstrated any particular coaching ability either. He somehow managed to squeeze 12 losses, and a MAC tourney semis exit, out of the massively talented Maui team. Not just any coach could do that. That team belonged in the top 25, and the round of 32, at least.
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