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NBA
Sept 23, 2020 8:29:08 GMT -6
Post by 00hmh on Sept 23, 2020 8:29:08 GMT -6
As sports fans we would prefer to see the sports we want to see without the politics, I agree. If you say that racism in America does not exist and is not a problem, I disagree.
These events are not always crystal clear, I agree. Some here seem to think force was not excessive or racially motivated in any way. I disagree, especially about the excessive force.
In any case it's sure easy to see how these athletes see the images as black and white. Most are more part of the black experience in America than most of us are.
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NBA
Sept 23, 2020 8:42:59 GMT -6
Post by villagepub on Sept 23, 2020 8:42:59 GMT -6
And Rachel Nichols is relevant because??? |
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NBA
Sept 23, 2020 9:06:17 GMT -6
Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Sept 23, 2020 9:06:17 GMT -6
It should be a stretch to celebrate criminals while denigrating police, but hey, it's their funeral. NBA ratings are cratering. That misunderstands their point. They are not celebrating any acts of the victims or the character of those victims. They are criticizing what they see as excessive violence against black men. Wrongful violence of the police officers is not excused by any past acts of those men.
Protest against excessive police violence by itself would be quite appropriate, and it would not "denigrate police" who should not defend excessive force.
Black athletes are understandably focusing her on the racial element they see. At this point it is not about the individual wrong done to the black men who were killed. But the images on the news are part of the emotional reality for black Americans who fear police and are angry at the perceived wrong, often angry at very real racism they have encountered. If players didn't have criminals' names on their jerseys, I'd agree. If they just said "Racism sucks" or something to that extent, I wouldn't be as disgusted by the whole deal. Sure, racism exists. But I think it gets lumped in with bigotry, which is a different thing. |
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NBA
Sept 23, 2020 9:54:27 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by williamtsherman on Sept 23, 2020 9:54:27 GMT -6
And somebody could wear an Adolf Hitler t-shirt around and explain they are only calling attention to Germany's economic recovery in the late 30's
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NBA
Sept 23, 2020 12:22:24 GMT -6
Post by 00hmh on Sept 23, 2020 12:22:24 GMT -6
And somebody could wear an Adolf Hitler t-shirt around and explain they are only calling attention to Germany's economic recovery in the late 30's I doubt there is much danger of misinterpretation of the meaning of wearing a Hitler t-shirt in very many cases. I just don't think European economic history of the 30's is likely to be anyone's first impression. Besides, Hitler despite his pledge to make Germany great again can not take all that much credit for success.
His talent for populist appeal was undeniable, that he still has followers a sign of the dark side of an appeal to patriotism, past glory, Christian values, and other fundamentally good things if your message also includes a chauvinism and xenophobia which doesn't recognize the human worth of minorities who you use instead to demonize and amass autocratic power.
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NBA
Sept 23, 2020 12:28:13 GMT -6
Post by 00hmh on Sept 23, 2020 12:28:13 GMT -6
That misunderstands their point. They are not celebrating any acts of the victims or the character of those victims. They are criticizing what they see as excessive violence against black men. Wrongful violence of the police officers is not excused by any past acts of those men.
Protest against excessive police violence by itself would be quite appropriate, and it would not "denigrate police" who should not defend excessive force.
Black athletes are understandably focusing her on the racial element they see. At this point it is not about the individual wrong done to the black men who were killed. But the images on the news are part of the emotional reality for black Americans who fear police and are angry at the perceived wrong, often angry at very real racism they have encountered. If players didn't have criminals' names on their jerseys, I'd agree. If they just said "Racism sucks" or something to that extent, I wouldn't be as disgusted by the whole deal. Sure, racism exists. But I think it gets lumped in with bigotry, which is a different thing. The names are the names of the victims and widely known, and they do become short hand symbols. If what you see when you see the name is the name of a criminal only, that's why I said you misunderstood the message. I can't see how anyone would intend that.
I certainly cannot think of a single instance where those names have been used to glorify or celebrate the person or his character. They may in fact show sympathy for the man, which may offend you, but after all the man killed is probably not remembered by anyone including his family or friends for any past criminal life.
You have a point that when you use symbols it is possible to misunderstand their meaning. It is also possible to initially use a symbol for one thing and it is appropriated for other use. BLM is just such a similar symbol where the usage is now almost always NOT to refer to the complete ideology of organization which trademarked it.
Context rescues the use of those names. Your interpretation and reaction is clearly not the one intended. If you listen to the message that accompanies the use of those symbols, and do not ignore it, I don't think that view can survive even a minute.
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NBA
Sept 23, 2020 12:33:57 GMT -6
Post by 00hmh on Sept 23, 2020 12:33:57 GMT -6
And Rachel Nichols is relevant because??? She was a journalist with a deadline, paid by the word?
Nothing wrong with her intent to give more attention to women's rights or to women in athletics, but a lame attempt, a serious misreading of her audience if she thought it would work.
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NBA
Sept 23, 2020 16:17:56 GMT -6
Post by villagepub on Sept 23, 2020 16:17:56 GMT -6
And Rachel Nichols is relevant because??? She was a journalist with a deadline, paid by the word?
Nothing wrong with her intent to give more attention to women's rights or to women in athletics, but a lame attempt, a serious misreading of her audience if she thought it would work.
She needs to go to the NY Times or WaPo, not ESPN as her conduit, if she wants to do social warrior stories. |
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NBA
Sept 23, 2020 19:24:25 GMT -6
Post by 00hmh on Sept 23, 2020 19:24:25 GMT -6
She was a journalist with a deadline, paid by the word?
Nothing wrong with her intent to give more attention to women's rights or to women in athletics, but a lame attempt, a serious misreading of her audience if she thought it would work.
She needs to go to the NY Times or WaPo, not ESPN as her conduit, if she wants to do social warrior stories. She certainly shouldn't expect the NBA players to be all purpose social warriors. The story was not fair to the players on that count and was either poorly judged, or worse, just her taking advantage of the player's visibility to get attention for herself and to get a cheap story. It was maybe to advance her sincere social concerns, but that's still poor journalism either way. You owe your duty to the reader who trusts you to identify a real story. |
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NBA
Sept 24, 2020 7:41:49 GMT -6
Post by williamtsherman on Sept 24, 2020 7:41:49 GMT -6
On the other hand, if they were to follow Rachel Nichols' demands, then that would be one person they promote who doesn't have a record of abusing and assaulting women.
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NBA
Sept 25, 2020 18:24:32 GMT -6
Post by CallingBS on Sept 25, 2020 18:24:32 GMT -6
I've gradually tuned out from the NBA since the Reggie Miller Pacer teams. But I'm wondering how people who still consider themselves fans, having some emotional attachment, view the current games and system. I think they are doing the right thing for their business in playing some form of schedule, but it seems to be more of an exhibition to me, with nothing like the usual rooting interest for fans. But as I said, my interest is low anyway. On a ten scale, my interest is usually 0.5 in the regular season, rising during the playoffs to maybe 3 for the finals. My interest in the current games is around 0.1.
Actual NBA fans: where is your interest level? I loathe the NBA. Literally haven't watched a game in several years. |
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NBA
Sept 26, 2020 21:09:02 GMT -6
Post by williamtsherman on Sept 26, 2020 21:09:02 GMT -6
The name of Wilma Hochstetler will never appear on an NBA or NFL uniform. Even though her murder represents something over 100 times more frequent than unarmed blacks being killed by police. Some things are fashionable to be concerned about and some things are not.
By the way, she was killed in Indy quite recently. How many of you have even heard of it?
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NBA
Sept 30, 2020 21:01:46 GMT -6
Post by rmcalhoun on Sept 30, 2020 21:01:46 GMT -6
Im starved for some sports.. So my options this evening were NBA Finals and an MLB wildcard game... Guess who is watching some Baseball. For me it has nothing to do with names on Jerseys or some other social cause. I just can not stand the NBA
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NBA
Oct 1, 2020 7:39:09 GMT -6
Post by 00hmh on Oct 1, 2020 7:39:09 GMT -6
The name of Wilma Hochstetler will never appear on an NBA or NFL uniform. Even though her murder represents something over 100 times more frequent than unarmed blacks being killed by police. Some things are fashionable to be concerned about and some things are not. Fashionable? I don't understand the use of that word.
Surely there is too much violent senseless gun crime. Sadly deaths related to gun use in crime are just not that newsworthy and we feel it is inevitable and beyond control. We do not respond with broad outrage. It is far too common.
I agree more public protest is in order, but confess I am not sure what we should target with the protest. Getting guns out of peoples hands through changing gun laws? Spending lots more taxpayer money for police presence? Urging more government action to improve education, job opportunity, for the poor? Let's get the NBA in gear on those issues.
Don't you think the point of public protest here is that where we have an incident of public police officials using excessive force that public protest is appropriate. That we feel we have more control over police use of violence supervised and controlled by public officials who are answerable to the public? Might not a broad public reaction to police policy that could prevent that kind of gun death actually produce some change, direct attention to a problem where public officials can change policing method?
As to what makes these incidents more urgent from the point of view of NBA players I'd think is that their emotions are heightened by what they see as racial prejudice being part of the equation. Sadly, I agree, many feel they must rebel against their own government and against a public order that is racist and oppressive. We agree I think that such a state of affairs should not be true, and probably agree the incident and the reaction to it are both senseless and excessive.
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NBA
Oct 1, 2020 8:38:30 GMT -6
Post by 00hmh on Oct 1, 2020 8:38:30 GMT -6
Im starved for some sports.. So my options this evening were NBA Finals and an MLB wildcard game... Guess who is watching some Baseball. For me it has nothing to do with names on Jerseys or some other social cause. I just can not stand the NBA I watched some NBA and some baseball, also ended up watching baseball.
Not having much interest in either team involved but loving basketball, I expected more bang from the NBA.
The team part really seems important in basketball.
The surprising realization I had was that the individual talent was just too overpowering, too apparent, too great. Amazing shooting ability, amazing quickness on the dribble. Maybe it should not have been such a shock, it has always has been another level. But watching a few plays even though he athleticism created some remarkable defense, the individual offense was just unstoppable at times, and dominated the team aspect. Too much talent. This is not the same game.
Having almost zero knowledge of either team in the game in baseball made little difference. If I had a team no doubt more intense, but I could still watch the game and enjoyed the lack of Adrenalin rush.
True enough also, that in the baseball , the players don't make many bonehead errors, or bungle base running, and they do make plays we never see on a sandlot.
But what makes baseball sometimes boring, rather surprisingly, was appealing. The slow pace, delay in action with throws to first, the conference on the mound, and so on. All that time between innings with nothing at all going on. But all of it produced a pleasant timeless narrative. It really enhanced the drama of a 3-2 pitch with 2 out and men on base, made more exciting the occasional flurry of action. The fact is that even if the talent is also extraordinary it is somehow more balanced which makes watching a game more universal, brought back a lot of the pleasure of having watched a thousand games in the past.
I actually went out and cooked a hotdog, got a beer. Printed out a scorecard and kept score for a few innings. Then nodded off...
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