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Post by david75bsu on Nov 26, 2024 7:37:07 GMT -6
Papa John’s offered to build a new stadium, however it would need to be called Papa John’s Stadium. Our policy at the time was that facilities would not be named after a person/business. Thus Papa John’s Stadium at the University of Louisville! Sad, but another Ball State f-up! That's the story I had heard. The reason I brought it up though.. maybe it's time we engage in some of those types of boosters to get an NIL collective started. Two things we are going to need going forward.. a better fan experience (not just the product in the field even though that's the main part) and an NIL collective. Having 3 major football teams in indiana makes it tough for a mid major like bsu to compete for fans. And maybe we can't change that narrative but it's worth a shot of getting folks for like Indianapolis up to the games. (Please don't wake me up from my dream yet it's a good one) we make the cfb team 12 playoff every year too. 🤣 we have two major programs. ND is a national university, far more than an Indiana university. |
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Post by williamtsherman on Nov 26, 2024 7:51:53 GMT -6
I really don’t understand the alleged importance of wanting to hang on to FBS status. You are stuck watching an inferior team play inferior opponents in an inferior conference with the 50% hope of winning 6 games and playing in an inferior bowl game. How satisfying is that?
From our friends at ChatGPT what it means to drop:
Significant perception and psychological impacts on various stakeholders, including the institution itself, players, fans, alumni, and the broader community.
The act is seen as a step backward or an admission that the university could not succeed at the FBS level. This can harm the school’s reputation in athletics and, in some cases, even its academic standing if athletics is tied to the school’s identity.
Media may frame the move as a failure or downgrade, potentially impacting public support.
Alumni donations may decline if supporters perceive the program or school as less prestigious or engaging.
The prestige of FBS football often drives economic and cultural activity. Dropping to FCS may reduce game-day excitement and economic benefits for local businesses.
The move could cause a micro or macro identity crisis, leading to doubts about the school’s ability to compete on a national stage in other areas. Media coverage would focus on the “drop” as a failure, potentially exacerbating negative public perceptions. In other words (my own, not ChatGPT) BSU needs to continue to pay for the illusion of FBS football. But who is fooled by this illusion? People who pay any attention to the situation are not fooled. People who aren't paying attention to the situation....aren't paying attention. So who does that leave? Who is the target audience for your charade? |
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Post by dancingcharlie on Nov 26, 2024 7:57:07 GMT -6
We get it 000hmh, for business reasons we are moving to D3 with the University of Chicago (who we are well below academically) where athletics will still be a black hole but even more so because we will lose out on TV revenue, conference payouts and multimedia rights contracts. This all seems to make sense to me. Honestly at that point just go and shut the whole thing down and turn the Scheumann Indoor into the 50M pool the Muncie community wants. That way we can make some money off of something in athletics. You can make a lot of arguments, but if your selling points are "TV revenue, conference payouts, and multimedia rights contracts" you are very unfamiliar with the financial realities of the MAC. I know these amounts are insignificant in comparison to other leagues, however they are significant to supporting our athletic department. If we move these amounts go away and we fall even further behind. So again, basically go non-scholarship or figure out how to be successful on the budget we have. I believe we can, it just takes a new way of thinking by all involved. We will never compete in NIL, ticket sales, etc. so we need to think and operate differently. |
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Post by grass on Nov 26, 2024 9:31:34 GMT -6
For the record, I am nauseated just thinking about saying our institution is not good enough at: “pick the program”.
From our friends at ChatGPT what it means to drop:
Significant perception and psychological impacts on various stakeholders, including the institution itself, players, fans, alumni, and the broader community.
The act is seen as a step backward or an admission that the university could not succeed at the FBS level. This can harm the school’s reputation in athletics and, in some cases, even its academic standing if athletics is tied to the school’s identity.
Media may frame the move as a failure or downgrade, potentially impacting public support.
Alumni donations may decline if supporters perceive the program or school as less prestigious or engaging.
The prestige of FBS football often drives economic and cultural activity. Dropping to FCS may reduce game-day excitement and economic benefits for local businesses.
The move could cause a micro or macro identity crisis, leading to doubts about the school’s ability to compete on a national stage in other areas. Media coverage would focus on the “drop” as a failure, potentially exacerbating negative public perceptions. In other words (my own, not ChatGPT) BSU needs to continue to pay for the illusion of FBS football. But who is fooled by this illusion? People who pay any attention to the situation are not fooled. People who aren't paying attention to the situation....aren't paying attention. So who does that leave? Who is the target audience for your charade? Why, those dummies who fill Scheumann when we field a winning team. And, arguably, the other 1,000s tailgating who do not enter the stadium. And we cannot forget the millions of others who watch us (the university actually) on whatever device, especially during bowl season. Fools. While we’re at it, “hey BSU student or parent, if we drop your fees by $100-200 per year, wouldn’t that be great? Because I can care less that the marketing the university would otherwise get is significantly greater.” |
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Post by 00hmh on Nov 26, 2024 9:53:39 GMT -6
From our friends at ChatGPT what it means to drop:
Significant perception and psychological impacts on various stakeholders, including the institution itself, players, fans, alumni, and the broader community.
The act is seen as a step backward or an admission that the university could not succeed at the FBS level. This can harm the school’s reputation in athletics and, in some cases, even its academic standing if athletics is tied to the school’s identity.
Media may frame the move as a failure or downgrade, potentially impacting public support.
Alumni donations may decline if supporters perceive the program or school as less prestigious or engaging.
The prestige of FBS football often drives economic and cultural activity. Dropping to FCS may reduce game-day excitement and economic benefits for local businesses.
The move could cause a micro or macro identity crisis, leading to doubts about the school’s ability to compete on a national stage in other areas. Media coverage would focus on the “drop” as a failure, potentially exacerbating negative public perceptions. In other words (my own, not ChatGPT) BSU needs to continue to pay for the illusion of FBS football. But who is fooled by this illusion? People who pay any attention to the situation are not fooled. People who aren't paying attention to the situation....aren't paying attention. So who does that leave? Who is the target audience for your charade? Notice the Chat robots use of "may" and "potential" in the answer. This alleged impact on our image as a national player applies to already bigger programs who want to avoid risk that they might not be considered big time and fear losing current perceived status.
We on the other hand are perceived as a mid major. Mid majors are not going to see the same negative impact, if any at all. Our nationally recognized programs and accomplishments are in niche areas and we are recognized there as an institution that is a bit of a surprise to be so good in those areas. Our architecture, business, education, music and arts programs and others are going to stand on their accreditation and past accomplishments which have nothing to do with athletics.
IF, by saving a buck on FB we can continue to support other sports we might find enhanced national recognition there. If in fact success in sports. If to save bottom tier FB we have to drop other sports that will have some negative impact, A savvy AD will promote our success in FCS and other D1 sports. has to be some plus, compared to press coverage of firing a failing coach, rinse and repeat every 6-7 years...
How exactly having an best second rate FBS program enhances our image as a major institution escapes me.
A decision to downsize would very likely be tied up with the MAC reorganizing to allow us to to do so, or with us leaving the MAC for the MVC, and/or perhaps our forming a new FCS FB conference of former MAC schools and other mid major institutions. In any case we would be grouped with similar schools that do not have pretense of being on the same level as the P4/5 programs in FB.
We are not now grouped with those major players anyway, grouped with G5 schools in FB, NONE of which are viewed as the equal of the headline flagship state institutions. How much does the FBS bowl game that comes with a winning MAC record really enhance our "identity?"
Our identity is not equal to IU or PU or ND but as a second tier school in Indiana. We are grouped there with ISU, and IUPUI, and funded at that level for the most part by the state. Does that change with FB status? We are not a better institution than ISU because of FB...we are a "better" institution because of the better programs and national recognition they get independent of FB.
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Post by redbirdman on Nov 26, 2024 10:46:22 GMT -6
We can not compete with Ohio St in football yet there they are on our 2026 schedule. If we were spending 20 million a season for players in the NIL I could see playing them but we won't.
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Post by CallingBS on Nov 26, 2024 11:04:59 GMT -6
You can make a lot of arguments, but if your selling points are "TV revenue, conference payouts, and multimedia rights contracts" you are very unfamiliar with the financial realities of the MAC. I know these amounts are insignificant in comparison to other leagues, however they are significant to supporting our athletic department. If we move these amounts go away and we fall even further behind. So again, basically go non-scholarship or figure out how to be successful on the budget we have. I believe we can, it just takes a new way of thinking by all involved. We will never compete in NIL, ticket sales, etc. so we need to think and operate differently. This mentality is like the old joke that goes, "we're losing money, but we'll make it up in volume." Spending $15 million per year on football to get like $100k in payouts is ludicrous. These amounts aren't just insignificant compared to the P4 and even other G5 conferences - they're insignificant, period. Also, keep in mind those payouts have costs attached to them that, for most schools, lead to a loss on the league payouts. MAC schools are required, per their contract with the league, to pay for production costs of EPSN+ broadcasts, among other things. And let's talk about the "huge" payouts we get to put our players on sacrificial altars at the likes of Georgia and Tennessee. The university spends like drunken sailors on those trips between travel, food, gifts, events, entertainment, etc., so there is very little, if any, surplus from those payouts. And again, we have to match those 85 scholarships and a good portion of that budget in ladies sports to be Title IX compliant, so the REAL cost of having FBS football is much higher than its direct costs. Here's the real problem - people are still thinking emotionally about this instead of rationally. We're fortunate if we average 15k in a REALLY good season once every maybe 10-15 years. The ESPN+ viewership numbers are shockingly low (almost always under 1,000 and often less than 100). There are not hundreds of thousands of eyes on our games - certainly not millions (as someone stated) - and typically in the tens or hundreds - maybe thousands if we're lucky. Perhaps we get 800,000 or even up to 1.2 million "viewers" for a midweek ESPN2 or ESPNU game, but we aren't getting more than 1 or 2 of those AT THE MOST per year, and most of those viewers are casual, meaning the game is on but they aren't paying that much attention. The other side of it is that ESPN is hemorrhaging money as an entity right now, and Disney has been desperately trying to unload it for over 10 years now. What happens when the next guy dumps ESPN+ because it's a disastrous money pit? Back to the emotional vs rational decision making...Look, I enjoy BSU football games and I'd be very sad to see it go, but the rational side of me knows there is zero justification for keeping it at this point. It has strapped our athletic department and students with outrageous fees (go to the BSU website and check it out - truly unreal) for far too long, and emotional decisions kept kicking the can down the road instead of doing the right thing. But as I've said before, the decision will be forced on us at some point in the near future IMHO, which could be as soon as 4-5 years from now. |
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Post by sdacardinal on Nov 26, 2024 11:17:31 GMT -6
Playing Ohio State is a cynical prostitution of our football team for a 2 million $ payout. Severe injuries such as spinal cord, concussions can occur anywhere on the practice field , game day etc. but against Ohio State, Georgia for the $$ is decidedly different. I hold that a life altering injury incurred against while playing Central Michigan would be looked at differently. If it happened while playing Ohio State there would be many  ? Dante Love sustained a life altering injury when we played IU and yes we got a pay out but at that time IU wouold have been a middle of the pack MAC team with equal talent with BSU. Final score was something like 40-20 BSU guess it wasn't so equal. |
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Post by cardfan on Nov 26, 2024 12:07:51 GMT -6
BS, Calhoun, and I have had several conversations the last couple years about the sustainability of football, or the lack there of. We just can’t see it. I think more and more folks are beginning to see that. I love college football. I know it’s Rob’s Jam. But how are we going to do this much longer? once the p4 or 5 completely break away and form their own professional division the rest of us will be out in the cold. What’s that gonna look like? How many MAC level programs are going to have to give up on football in order to save athletics as a whole? How are the big donors of all things football going to feel about that? How many empty, rotting football stadiums will there be sitting across the country? Sure, that all sounds apocalyptic but where else is this runaway train heading? Does it become a club sport? An Ivy League type non scholarship sport played regionally? I can even see some P4 schools saying, whoa, we’ve hit a wall here. There’s only so much a school can hemorrhage before it says stop. At some point something will have to be sacrificed. What will it be?
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Post by dancingcharlie on Nov 26, 2024 12:49:57 GMT -6
I know these amounts are insignificant in comparison to other leagues, however they are significant to supporting our athletic department. If we move these amounts go away and we fall even further behind. So again, basically go non-scholarship or figure out how to be successful on the budget we have. I believe we can, it just takes a new way of thinking by all involved. We will never compete in NIL, ticket sales, etc. so we need to think and operate differently. This mentality is like the old joke that goes, "we're losing money, but we'll make it up in volume." Spending $15 million per year on football to get like $100k in payouts is ludicrous. These amounts aren't just insignificant compared to the P4 and even other G5 conferences - they're insignificant, period. Also, keep in mind those payouts have costs attached to them that, for most schools, lead to a loss on the league payouts. MAC schools are required, per their contract with the league, to pay for production costs of EPSN+ broadcasts, among other things. And let's talk about the "huge" payouts we get to put our players on sacrificial altars at the likes of Georgia and Tennessee. The university spends like drunken sailors on those trips between travel, food, gifts, events, entertainment, etc., so there is very little, if any, surplus from those payouts. And again, we have to match those 85 scholarships and a good portion of that budget in ladies sports to be Title IX compliant, so the REAL cost of having FBS football is much higher than its direct costs. Here's the real problem - people are still thinking emotionally about this instead of rationally. We're fortunate if we average 15k in a REALLY good season once every maybe 10-15 years. The ESPN+ viewership numbers are shockingly low (almost always under 1,000 and often less than 100). There are not hundreds of thousands of eyes on our games - certainly not millions (as someone stated) - and typically in the tens or hundreds - maybe thousands if we're lucky. Perhaps we get 800,000 or even up to 1.2 million "viewers" for a midweek ESPN2 or ESPNU game, but we aren't getting more than 1 or 2 of those AT THE MOST per year, and most of those viewers are casual, meaning the game is on but they aren't paying that much attention. The other side of it is that ESPN is hemorrhaging money as an entity right now, and Disney has been desperately trying to unload it for over 10 years now. What happens when the next guy dumps ESPN+ because it's a disastrous money pit? Back to the emotional vs rational decision making...Look, I enjoy BSU football games and I'd be very sad to see it go, but the rational side of me knows there is zero justification for keeping it at this point. It has strapped our athletic department and students with outrageous fees (go to the BSU website and check it out - truly unreal) for far too long, and emotional decisions kept kicking the can down the road instead of doing the right thing. But as I've said before, the decision will be forced on us at some point in the near future IMHO, which could be as soon as 4-5 years from now. Okay then what is your solution? |
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Post by CallingBS on Nov 26, 2024 12:51:05 GMT -6
This mentality is like the old joke that goes, "we're losing money, but we'll make it up in volume." Spending $15 million per year on football to get like $100k in payouts is ludicrous. These amounts aren't just insignificant compared to the P4 and even other G5 conferences - they're insignificant, period. Also, keep in mind those payouts have costs attached to them that, for most schools, lead to a loss on the league payouts. MAC schools are required, per their contract with the league, to pay for production costs of EPSN+ broadcasts, among other things. And let's talk about the "huge" payouts we get to put our players on sacrificial altars at the likes of Georgia and Tennessee. The university spends like drunken sailors on those trips between travel, food, gifts, events, entertainment, etc., so there is very little, if any, surplus from those payouts. And again, we have to match those 85 scholarships and a good portion of that budget in ladies sports to be Title IX compliant, so the REAL cost of having FBS football is much higher than its direct costs. Here's the real problem - people are still thinking emotionally about this instead of rationally. We're fortunate if we average 15k in a REALLY good season once every maybe 10-15 years. The ESPN+ viewership numbers are shockingly low (almost always under 1,000 and often less than 100). There are not hundreds of thousands of eyes on our games - certainly not millions (as someone stated) - and typically in the tens or hundreds - maybe thousands if we're lucky. Perhaps we get 800,000 or even up to 1.2 million "viewers" for a midweek ESPN2 or ESPNU game, but we aren't getting more than 1 or 2 of those AT THE MOST per year, and most of those viewers are casual, meaning the game is on but they aren't paying that much attention. The other side of it is that ESPN is hemorrhaging money as an entity right now, and Disney has been desperately trying to unload it for over 10 years now. What happens when the next guy dumps ESPN+ because it's a disastrous money pit? Back to the emotional vs rational decision making...Look, I enjoy BSU football games and I'd be very sad to see it go, but the rational side of me knows there is zero justification for keeping it at this point. It has strapped our athletic department and students with outrageous fees (go to the BSU website and check it out - truly unreal) for far too long, and emotional decisions kept kicking the can down the road instead of doing the right thing. But as I've said before, the decision will be forced on us at some point in the near future IMHO, which could be as soon as 4-5 years from now. Okay then what is your solution? I would've dumped football years ago, and I certainly would now. |
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Post by cardfan on Nov 26, 2024 13:12:16 GMT -6
Let’s think in the reverse then. I’d love to keep football but doubt it can continue in its current state. So what do we do to save it? Less schollies? Limit travel to bus trips only? No schollies? I’d you want to keep football, what are your solutions to do so while also maintaining the other flagship sports? We’ve let men’s basketball rot. Women’s is consistently good but what’s that budget like? I want baseball to be a strongly supported sport but it’s basically shoestring, yet still wins. How good could it be if Rich could compete with the best regional programs financially?
How can we develop a competitive NIL program for all sports, not just football? Can we even?
Tell us how to keep football without massive cuts.
I’ll add that BS and I, and I’m sure HMH are fully aware of the financial situation of the University. We’re all pinching pennies. Mearns has cut everything to the bone. Budgets are thin across campus. Academic programs are not as strong as they used to be. I personally feel like our university has been cheapened by Mearns and whatever agenda is going on there. The state has cut funding to higher ed as if educating young people no longer has value. Morale is low. So, I know I’m coming at this with more with an eye on survival at this point and I’m afraid at some point football will be looked at as far too expensive to hang onto.
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Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Nov 26, 2024 15:18:21 GMT -6
Mearns has cut everything to the bone. I disagree. I can think of several programs that could be cut entirely. |
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Post by 00hmh on Nov 26, 2024 15:53:18 GMT -6
I’ll add that BS and I, and I’m sure HMH are fully aware of the financial situation of the University. We’re all pinching pennies. Mearns has cut everything to the bone. Budgets are thin across campus. Academic programs are not as strong as they used to be. I personally feel like our university has been cheapened by Mearns and whatever agenda is going on there. The state has cut funding to higher ed as if educating young people no longer has value. Morale is low. So, I know I’m coming at this with more with an eye on survival at this point and I’m afraid at some point football will be looked at as far too expensive to hang onto. FB in present form is going to die.
Mearns is not the culprit. He is the guy who has to make the decisions what to cut, not the guy deciding the agenda. ICHE and the legislature don't really give us much choice.
Administrative costs are still high, but the administration is consolidating academic departments and even cutting (gasp) some of those many associate and assistant administrator jobs... Department heads in academic departments now often simply don't know the disciplines they make decisions about.
Tenure lines are being replaced with itinerant adjunct profs who have no loyalty or commitment to BSU. They aren't around for students, and could care less about working to improve curriculum or do other work outside their classroom assignments. Some are working at two schools to make ends meet. I can't fault them on that.
It just turns out that old Ball State had people who were here for the long haul and (mostly) committed. Never that highly paid. True enough there was some locked in dead wood, but the worst of those were not being paid very well. Arguably we've had decades of hiring good young faculty for pretty good market pay and simply been unable to keep them. We cut faculty lines to afford some star researchers, then they are gone...and their money is not there to replace them. Not only does that happen but we're losing the tenure track line we might use to at least try to get young faculty to replace retirees because we cannot afford the cost. The line just disappears, no adjunct money allocated, and a department now must do more with less. Which hastens the better faculty exiting as their work load increases, and their research funding is decreased. Or in many cases we see those cuts, and low morale, leading to retirement. People we don't want to leave...
Cutting budget hurts quality. No doubt. But no choice.
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Post by frozenbaugh on Nov 26, 2024 16:09:08 GMT -6
So if we cut football, where are we going to go if the MAC itself continues in FBS? Who’s to say any conference would want Ball State?
You can’t assume the MVC has interest. Ball State basketball is no longer Ball State basketball.
The American is a hodgepodge of teams with travel to UTSA and Tulsa.
There is the Summit where we can battle the Kansas City Roos and St. Thomas-Minnesota Tommies.
Conference USA is a possibility with Kennesaw State and the Sam Houston Bearkats.
The only real logical fit is the Horizon with IUPUI (Ooey Pooey) and the Fort Wayne Mastadons. I’d have no problem with that although I’d rather play the Miami RedHawks than the Robert Morris Colonials.
Whether it’s sooner or later the only way this will happen is if the MAC as a whole decides to dump it. I haven’t heard rumblings that they are so I am going to enjoy a bad Ball State football program for a few more years. Personally, I’d rather watch football anyway. The basketball program is not good and has been for a while. (I realize this is 100% due to football and not bad coaching hires)
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? Dante Love sustained a life altering injury when we played IU and yes we got a pay out but at that time IU wouold have been a middle of the pack MAC team with equal talent with BSU. Final score was something like 40-20 BSU guess it wasn't so equal.
