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Post by rmcalhoun on Jan 14, 2018 19:57:03 GMT -6
This should be fun... I think we can all agree or we should be able to agree that BSU has some problems. Is it recruiting failures.. Is it the offense/ defense? Is it players just not playing well. Is it player developement?
Ill start by saying I think the current players are just not playing all that well right now and hopefully they can bust out
I do fear that the problems begin earlier than though. It seems as if every player we recruit we all say just wait till he is older and or ready. Thats fine for the majority of players and is not uncommon. What bothers me is when was the last time we had a freshman come in and we did not have to say well he will be good in a year or two. I watch other MAC teams and I see freshman scoring 15-25 points. They are good now probably not consistent but you can tell without a doubt they are good.
Sellers comes to mind but he was helped because he just took a ton of shots a freshman. His best games were as a freshman but he has never been able to do it since.
Before Sellers there were Turner and Posley. It did not work out for either here but you could watch them and you knew they were good. They both had issues but they did contribute with some big games. They both went on to start and have good careers at other places.
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Post by realitycheck on Jan 14, 2018 20:45:37 GMT -6
OK I’ll play. I think it mainly comes down to recruiting. We have some nice players but have never been able to land the game changer. Persons was the closest thing and I thought he had officially arrived after the ND and Valpo games but he has faded and better teams have figured out that if you stop him or limit him we tend to stagnate.
The inability to to land physical interior players also has hurt us which we’ve discussed in a thousand threads, but every coach prior to Whit, Thompson and Taylor were able to get one or sometimes even multiple studs. McCurdy, Kidd, Chandler, Bonzi, Payne, Tee, Clemens, Williams, Petey, and the list goes on of first-team All MAC difference makers who were consistent and gave opposing coaches nightmares. When’s the last time we’ve seen that. Oh yeah 2001 if I recall.
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Post by cardfan on Jan 14, 2018 21:04:18 GMT -6
I think describing our players as nice is perfect in several levels. They are not great players, they are nice players. And for the most part are nice kids. They lack an edge, a fire. They honestly are mostly complimentary players who would make very nice pieces around a stud/alpha. Persons is as close as we have to an alpha, but as RC says, he’s faded over the last several games. When he’s not producing big we struggle to score. No one else is willing to step up and lead the way and put points and take big shots. All of them are capable of having a good night here and there. But none of them seem to be able to give us a big night on a regular basis. Again Persons has been the only one to consistently produce but again, not lately. Whit has recruited a bunch of the same guys with the same skill sets and similar talent levels who, when firing on all cylinders are pretty good. But rare is the game we do that. So then you have a bunch of average players running around out there doing average things. With that we get average to a little above average results for the most part. We win enough games to be able to buy into a post season tourney but make little real impact. The needle just doesn’t move much. 20 wins to no where? Whit needs to get a few impact players. A really good, consistently productive 2 guard, a quick, effective PG who is good at both ends of the court and creates for others, and a strong inside presence. We can’t seem to find all 3 at the same time. Nice players but not difference makers.
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Post by rmcalhoun on Jan 14, 2018 21:17:58 GMT -6
So three posts and all blame recruiting interesting
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Post by thebsukid on Jan 14, 2018 21:23:09 GMT -6
I think if I had two recruiting wishes I’d request a 6’9-6’11dominating MAC big man and a very athletic #2 guard that can shoot and score off the dribble.
If the transfer can improve his shot with practice we may have this piece!
Moses is solid but not the dominate post we all desire.
I also would like to play more high-low with Moses at the free throw line and Teague on the low block!
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Post by rmcalhoun on Jan 14, 2018 21:27:26 GMT -6
I think if I had two recruiting wishes I’d request a 6’9-6’11dominating MAC big man and a very athletic #2 guard that can shoot and score off the dribble. If the transfer can improve his shot with practice we may have this piece! Moses is solid but not the dominate post we all desire. This whole statement seems odd coming from you but I agree with it. So do you also blame recruiting?
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Post by thebsukid on Jan 14, 2018 21:32:22 GMT -6
I believe recruiting could be better but I think I probably give the overall recruiting effort perhaps a better grade than some!
I believe we can still compete for a MAC championship this year but we need to play much better than the last couple of weeks
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Post by rmcalhoun on Jan 14, 2018 21:37:05 GMT -6
I believe recruiting could be better but I think I probably give the overall recruiting effort perhaps a better grade than some! I believe we can still compete for a MAC championship this year but we need to play much better than the last couple of weeks We disagree a lot but I will give you credit this is in my opinion one of the realist things you have said in years
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Post by reevo on Jan 14, 2018 22:36:06 GMT -6
I believe his philosophy is flawed for a mid major program. I have said this a million times but to play the way coach Whitford wants to play is not conducive to winning big, and competing on the big stage at the Mid Major level. Too many teams are playing this way now and there are not enough athletic skilled kids out there that we can recruit.
Butler stole a page from our success in the late 80’s and have run with it ever since. They recruit hard nosed kids who defend, rebound and find shooters to complement them. They are disciplined and very rarely do they not compete, regardless of who they play.
We have to be different than the other programs if we want to be the MAC’s premiere program. By design, he needs to open up his recruiting territory to include Chicago, Detroit, Milwaukee, Louisville, Cincinnati, Columbus, St.Louis. Inner cities which are drivable to Muncie yet have a tough core.
If we are being honest here, I just don’t think that James Whitford is the guy to lead this program back to where we all want. I don’t necessarily think he is a bad coach becuase he does some good things, but I just don’t see him getting enough talented athletic kids to play the way he wants which means we will always be ok, occasionally good, but not consistently the top tier program I think we can be with a change in philosophy.
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Post by Hoopsmith on Jan 14, 2018 22:47:17 GMT -6
Before Sellers there were Turner and Posley. It did not work out for either here but you could watch them and you knew they were good. They both had issues but they did contribute with some big games. They both went on to start and have good careers at other places. Zavier Turn(ov)er did flash some potential for us, but where did he have a good career elsewhere at a D-1 level? I agree with Posley, would even make a case for Melvin Goins.
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Post by lmills72 on Jan 14, 2018 22:54:24 GMT -6
I look at recruiting and player development, even though I consider both under Whitford to be better than they were under Taylor.
Coaching strategywise or fundamentals may be lacking but I think the results over the past 2.5 seasons indicate those shortcomings could probably be overcome with better recruiting.
In addition to the things that a dominating inside presence and the versatile 2 guard would bring, what that also would have done is allow other players to play their true positions, which has been a problem since the start of Whitford's tenure and continues to be so. Kiapway, for at least part of his first three years, played out of position because Whit couldn't recruit a PG. Mallers is forced to play the 4 for similar reasons. And as has been discussed on other threads, the coaching staff allows Teague to play as a 2 guard, even though he could potentially be a dominant MAC 4.
I certainly would love to have a freshman step in at the top of the food chain, but Whitford's recruiting has relied heavily on transfers so our impact newcomers — Weber, Davis, Persons, perhaps Hazen and Walton — haven't been freshmen.
Either way Whitford has failed to seal the deal on a player capable of putting this team on his shoulders.
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Post by lmills72 on Jan 14, 2018 23:05:07 GMT -6
<abbr>Zavier </abbr>Turner is finishing up his time at Manhattan. He averaged 14 ppg last year and is averaging 8-9 this year. He's got more assists than turnovers this year, was about even last year. Is that a "good" career? You decide.
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Post by rmcalhoun on Jan 14, 2018 23:28:30 GMT -6
Im shocked this is thread is going this way. It seems like we all basically agree. I figured this would lead to name calling and threats but it looks like everyone is on the same page
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Post by cbcjanney on Jan 15, 2018 0:49:10 GMT -6
I think the program has advanced to the point that we shouldn't have to worry about finishing last in the MAC in the near future, but not sure they have the mindset to dominate, or win every game, as we on this board would like to see. There seems to be a mentality of trying to win 2 out of 3 and/or be too content with up & down performances. It's like they think 12-6 MAC is attainable but 15-3 or better is unrealistic. I do believe we get more recognition/recruiting mileage long-term out of a Notre Dame-type win even if coupled with a Bucknell-type loss rather than the inverse, so in that regard I'll take the up-and-down to an extent. But of course those of us who lived through the 3-loss season and 19-2 MAC marks incl conf tourney don't want to settle for winning 2 out of 3 - we want to win them all. Unfortunately the national college scene is such that bigger conferences have more parity and lots conferences are won with .700 W-L percentages & 5-ish losses and even teams in the Top-25 at the end of the season will have double-digit losses (formerly unheardof) and we seem to have that flawed mental makeup as well that you can't win 'em all.
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Post by bsu1 on Jan 15, 2018 5:32:31 GMT -6
Persons has a big target on his back for opposing defenses since the ND and Valpo games;opposing defenses key on him. They know he is the only one on our team that could rely go ocf on them. Hes was aggressive against Westwrn kn the second half. Maybe because Ish played point a lot in the second half it freed Taylor to be more aggressive. That being said, i dont think Taylor has played as well earlier since he was hit in the head a few games ago.
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