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Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Nov 20, 2023 11:45:05 GMT -6
There are young hungry coaches who would come here without the benefit of a safety net contract. If they do good they would move on anyway. If not then they also would be gone without having to pay a buyout. Agree with the General. Name one. Why would they come here when every other school gives a better deal for them? Do you think any good coach would do something that stupid? Sorry, not buying it. |
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Post by JacksonStreetElite on Nov 20, 2023 12:24:52 GMT -6
There are young hungry coaches who would come here without the benefit of a safety net contract. If they do good they would move on anyway. If not then they also would be gone without having to pay a buyout. Agree with the General. Name one. Why would they come here when every other school gives a better deal for them? Do you think any good coach would do something that stupid? Sorry, not buying it. Saying "name one" isn't really fair, since the whole premise is finding a diamond in the rough. Any name would be attached to an unproven and largely unknown candidate. So the obvious follow up if he did name someone (e.g. a highly successful high school coach) would be to write that person off as unproven. As to why, the obvious answer is an opportunity that is otherwise unavailable. Using the highly successful high school coach example, if he's confident enough, he would take the chance on the expectation that he'll prove himself and eventually get a bigger offer with a guarantee from a program that can afford it. It's like calling a trick play; it looks stupid if it doesn't work and it looks brilliant if it does. Using the PJ Fleck example, lots of people suggested he wouldn't take the Purdue job because it was too hard. If you're a PJ Fleck-type coach you're not dissuaded by that because you're so confident that you're the key ingredient. When Whitford came here he said he'd passed on other jobs but this was the perfect opportunity. I originally took that as a compliment but after a few years it seemed like he might just be a guy looking for the easy road. Lewis said something similar when he got here and this time I took it as a red flag. I don't necessarily think he's an "easy road" type of guy, but I do want a coach that could make whatever team he's coaching competitive. Two things we don't have are money to pay buy-outs and time to wait while a coach drives the program into the ground during the expiry of his failed tenure. I don't know if this is the solution, but there's a lot about the structure of coaching contracts that doesn't make sense to me. |
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Post by 00hmh on Nov 20, 2023 12:59:01 GMT -6
I'm curious how this lower level unknown will be a great coach with higher level players, have contacts to attract a great staff who will have to bet on him, will understand NIL, can go out and sell his unknown self to players and navigate the portal (which appears to mean he can not only evaluate but attract current college players who have no idea who he is).
This unknown boldly confident genius would already have the alternatives all young coaches have to move up in a conventional way. It would be pretty rapid for a young man with all those talents, very low risk... So I guess we add impatient to his resume description.
How did he acquire all those talents, but not have the references and reputation he would be under the radar?
I'm just not thinking it's quite as easy a plan for us to adopt as the General thinks.
I know it's a plan an AD would have a lot of trouble selling to his President.
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Post by williamtsherman on Nov 20, 2023 13:34:16 GMT -6
Yeah.
You're right.
Let's keep doing what's failed every year for a quarter century.
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Post by 00hmh on Nov 20, 2023 13:54:42 GMT -6
Yeah. You're right. Let's keep doing what's failed every year for a quarter century. No. Let's do what all the top MAC teams for a quarter century have done, what every successful program in the country has done. While we're doing that we can use the same guarantee they do. I can sell that to a University President, donors and the BOT. |
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Post by williamtsherman on Nov 20, 2023 14:03:29 GMT -6
By the way, I would like to make clear that I have not just given up on Lewis. I haven't even completely given up on this season. But the signs are more discouraging than encouraging at this particular point. I have zero patience left for people who would try to obfuscate that and make excuses. That's a broken record that I am thoroughly sick of.
First and foremost, it seems certain that Lewis has degraded the talent on the roster compared to what he inherited. That's not just a bad omen, that's a TERRIBLE omen. The worst and most serious kind of omen. The NIL/portal roster-building environment he has operated in as a head coach during the last 18 months is not going to change in the foreseeable future. Nor do I see that he is anything more than an average bench coach. Measured by wins relative to talent on hand, I don't see that he has out-performed reasonable expectations. I think some people on here just like his throwback style and are inclined to overrate him for that reason. Personally I am agnostic on coaching style. I observe that coaches recruit well and win championships with all different types of style.
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Post by sdacardinal on Nov 20, 2023 14:55:05 GMT -6
I think Ben Davis coach and others in the Indy area could step into the college ring. Many are already coaching div.I recruits that Ball State will never see. they have connections with players throughout the state with the AAU. Also Cathedral knows how to recruit. In football Center Grove has been very successful. Think their coach had something to do with it? Ben Davis the same. Yes we need more $ for NIL but even at the high school level the portal is in effect as players transfer to different schools all the time. Charlie Spegal comes to mind. In the past Phil Buck, Norm Held could have both been good college coaches and the money that any of these coaches would have gotten from BSU would have been a great deal more than what they made in the public high schools
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Post by Lurkin McGurkin on Nov 20, 2023 15:30:39 GMT -6
I think Ben Davis coach and others in the Indy area could step into the college ring. Many are already coaching div.I recruits that Ball State will never see. they have connections with players throughout the state with the AAU. Also Cathedral knows how to recruit. In football Center Grove has been very successful. Think their coach had something to do with it? Ben Davis the same. Yes we need more $ for NIL but even at the high school level the portal is in effect as players transfer to different schools all the time. Charlie Spegal comes to mind. In the past Phil Buck, Norm Held could have both been good college coaches and the money that any of these coaches would have gotten from BSU would have been a great deal more than what they made in the public high schools I'd be interested to see how many high school coaches went directly to head coach in a D1 college, and what success they had. My guess is that the first number is fairly small, and the second number microscopic. |
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Post by sdacardinal on Nov 20, 2023 16:27:04 GMT -6
The mind set of a high school coach in Indiana has forever been that of the coach at Milan a classroom teacher first a coach that was paid very little. In the larger high schools such as Anderson, Highland or Madison Heights a new coach was front page news often mentioning as an after thought that the new coach would be teaching Social Studies. As it turned out the coaching was far more important than teaching about the Bill of Rights to these individuals who in many cases only had a minor in history and furthermore didn't give a shit about it. Times have changed as the coaches now are coaching at high schools with enrollments of 3and 4 thousand similar to small colleges. Noblesville 3300, Carmel 5300 Westfield 2400 Ben Davis 5400 Center Grove 3437. At these school the demands placed upon these coaches are similar to a college setting. I agree that most of the good high school coaches in the near past have started out as assistants. Another thing these coaches at the big schools are nationaly known for the players they have sent on to the Big Ten, SEC, etc.
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Post by 00hmh on Nov 20, 2023 16:29:53 GMT -6
I think Ben Davis coach and others in the Indy area could step into the college ring. Many are already coaching div.I recruits that Ball State will never see. they have connections with players throughout the state with the AAU. Also Cathedral knows how to recruit. In football Center Grove has been very successful. Think their coach had something to do with it? Ben Davis the same. Yes we need more $ for NIL but even at the high school level the portal is in effect as players transfer to different schools all the time. Charlie Spegal comes to mind. In the past Phil Buck, Norm Held could have both been good college coaches and the money that any of these coaches would have gotten from BSU would have been a great deal more than what they made in the public high schools I'd be interested to see how many high school coaches went directly to head coach in a D1 college, and what success they had. My guess is that the first number is fairly small, and the second number microscopic. There have been rare success stories. NONE I know of that involved a coach taking the leap without a guarantee.
A good number of HS coaches move from HS to assistant ranks or to lower level schools. As an assistant without guarantee typically. Most making the move rather young. Some of those move up to D1 HC eventually. There is a substantial learning curve. There is a career path young coaches follow. For a reason.
There is a good reason ADs rarely make hires where the HC doesn't have D1 experience.
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Post by sdacardinal on Nov 20, 2023 16:45:31 GMT -6
Key word here is "young coaches" I am talking about successful proven high school coaches. If I were the AD I would check out that entire Center Grove football program. Thay have and are doing something right. I know with their play calling I would have a hard time predicting the next play not so here at Ball State. A leap of faith required and if it doesn't work we don't have to pay a large buyout.
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Post by coastalcard on Nov 20, 2023 18:13:54 GMT -6
Let’s not forget that we were able to secure a coach with name recognition, local and regional connections, experience at national high level winning programs, respect of national coaching peers and with more school enthusiasm, drive and personality than we have seen since Majerus.
What I’m reading is it’s already time to throw him under the bus for a successful high school coach or two after one season at 20-12 and being 3-1 in the start of his second season. Really?
I realize that there are knowledgeable basketball fans on here that have years of internet experience dissecting successful mid major basketball success stories and formulating their own strategies that guarantee immediate success. I think Michael Lewis’ email is public knowledge and he might likely sit down with those experts and discuss a constructive strategy. Worth a shot.
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Post by sdacardinal on Nov 20, 2023 18:36:47 GMT -6
Well Coastalcard in no way I was advocating rolling over Lewis with the bus. I would help him drive the bus down the road of development and to the destination of victory. I raised the idea of the possibility that some of these high powered coaches from the big high schools could step into a Div.I position. I believe in Lewis that he will get us to the promised land (NCAA TOURNEY)
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Post by lmills72 on Nov 20, 2023 19:36:01 GMT -6
Not sure who's argument this might fit but FYI ...
Nate Oats was a highly successful high school coach who served just 2 years as an assistant at Buffalo before becoming the HC there. I assume everyone here knows the rest of the story.
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Post by 00hmh on Nov 20, 2023 20:15:38 GMT -6
Not sure who's argument this might fit but FYI ... Nate Oats was a highly successful high school coach who served just 2 years as an assistant at Buffalo before becoming the HC there. I assume everyone here knows the rest of the story. Yes. A completely conventional success story. A good argument for hiring assistants with high potential. At time was hired as HC he knew the players, the UB system, knew the ropes of recruiting, scouting and coaching college players. He learned a lot in a couple of years, was in the right place at the right time. |
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